Ways to Never Let Money Ruin Your Relationships Again
Sex and Money are two hard topics to address. In this episode we will explore why money and finances are ruining your romantic relationships and what to do about it. Join Kirsten as she sits down with money expert and financial planner Shannah Game to discuss the significant role money plays in romantic relationships.
Whether you are single and trying to navigate who should pay on the first date or you're in a committed relationship preparing to spend your life with someone who in debt this episode is for you. Shannah breaks down practical exercises for couples to build a healthy financial dynamic.
The episode also touches on the historical expectations of men as providers and the interconnection between financial and sexual health in relationships. Don’t miss this episode. Your heart, your cock, and your wallet will thank you.
Key Topics:
01:28 Understanding Money in Relationships
04:30 Starting the Money Conversation
06:36 Building a Financial Partnership
10:14 Men, Money, and Societal Expectations
19:08 Exercises for Financial Harmony
24:27 Dating and Financial Dynamics
31:18 Money and Sex: The Connection
33:08 Final Thoughts and Resources
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] The only topic harder to talk about than sex is money. And today we are talking about both because the reality is that one in four couples fight or disagree about money every single week. And if you're single, the average day in 2024 is costing you $67 in. It might not even be with somebody that you want to see again. So let's fix this.
Welcome back to the naked connection. This is the show that supports driven men to reach sexual mastery and build deep connections. What's up, you guys, it's Kiersten your soon to be licensed therapist.
In this episode, we are about to break down how to broach and navigate the topic of money with a woman and build a really healthy financial relationship. Shawna game joins us for this very topic. Shawna is a certified financial planner, a trauma of money expert, and she has spent over 10 years teaching financial literacy at CSU Northridge. She also works with individuals and couples to improve their [00:01:00] relationship with money.
You guys we're doubling down today. Let's get some.
Shauna Game, welcome to the Naked Connection.
I am so excited to be here, so I am, I can't wait to have this conversation actually.
I hope all of the amazing men listening are as well. And I wanted to kick this off just understanding all of your expertise in money and finances. I would love to understand what role you see money play in romantic relationships.
Wow. Yeah. I mean, we could spend the entire episode just on that one particular question. I'm sort of a reluctant money expert, if you will. It was probably destined for me because my father's been in the financial industry. My Or his actual entire career. And so I grew up having a vocabulary around money and it was really great because from day one I was working with [00:02:00] people with just massive amounts of money and I got to see the similarities that we all share with money regardless of how much money we make.
I spent most of my time dealing with couples and relationships. And really, I think at the core, I became more of a financial therapist role than a money expert.
And that was really what launched my kind of deep investigation into really understanding the. Mindset around money, the behavioral side of money, and money is really 90 percent mental, maybe even more. 10 percent the actual how to, but the problem is, is most people look to the how to. How do I buy a car?
How do I save for retirement? How do I start a business? And then, when things don't go as planned, they're like this doesn't make sense because this isn't money about math. And it really isn't. Money is mental and it's it's made up of all [00:03:00] sorts of things that we can understand and not understand.
So when you're dealing with couples, you've got two people who really don't understand their own relationship with money, haven't processed how they grew up around money, their beliefs around money and how that's impacting them. Right now. So you come into a conversation about money and you're both coming from this charged, confused, sometimes traumatic, intense, emotional place.
And we wonder why conflict exists around money or why no one in a relationship wants to talk about money. And it's because of this very strong dynamic. So if we ourselves don't really want to deal with money or don't really want to talk about money, you know, when we come together, it's just, it's kind of ripe for an explosion or at the very least, just a massive misunderstanding between two people.
Yeah. [00:04:00] Yeah. Okay. And so it's like we have, we each kind of have, I guess you could call it our own money stories. And then we come together, these two stories are exploding against each other in many ways, I would imagine. So knowing that, you brought up something interesting about talking about money and it blows my mind how few people actually talk about money and how many people are either on the precipice of marriage or something like that.
And they have never even shared their finances. So I mean, this is a how to question, but how do we start talking about money and when? When do we bring this up? When in a relationship do you find people are most successful with having these conversations?
I think the earlier, the better. And I know that feels really scary, but I look at it this way, money touches all aspects of our lives.
So it's really hard to pick some area of our life where money is not somehow a [00:05:00] component. And I think the best way to start conversations is actually from a place of curiosity. And I think this is what most people miss in their approach. So what we're used to doing is saying to our partner something like, I can't believe you're this much in debt.
Or I can't believe why did you spend this amount of money on this? Or why do you shop here? You know, we're used to coming at things from a very accusatory place. And that does not. Open the door for, , kindness in return. It usually ends up building up, you know, some sort of resentment between the two people and then they just don't want to come together to talk about these things.
So I really like approaching it with curiosity and more of A question asking game. Sitting down with your partner and saying things like, Tell me how you feel about money. What is your first memory around money? How did your parents talk about money? What are your biggest fears around money? What are the things [00:06:00] you really want to do with money?
What does money actually mean to you? Asking these types of very open ended, curious questions helps create a dialogue. amongst two people and a place where you can come together as partners and begin to understand the dynamics of somebody else's relationship around money. And then once we have all these answers and we have this awareness, then it's okay, how do we take this being two different people and put it together in a way where we can create some sort of partnership around money that isn't ugly or accusatory.
So I think the best thing you can do in the beginning is start to ask these questions. But I always tell partners, do this in a fun environment, do this, like when you're having your favorite beverage or you're at a park you love or by the swimming pool, it's something where the experience is already enjoyable.
And what that's going to do from a somatic perspective, like [00:07:00] an internal in our body perspective is lower the temperature. And allow you to be in a place where you can answer questions and ask them back and forth without feeling like, Oh my gosh, okay, now this person wants to look at my bank account, I guess, or, you know, our brains go to crazy places.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Those questions are amazing. Even I felt palmer just hearing you share them because when I think about how to have conversations with someone that I'm dating or have been in a relationship with, like my thoughts are like, do I ask them how much money they make? Do I like, how do you even broach that topic?
And you're right about being a money therapist. I could see how that would easily move into the more practical understandings of what is someone's money situation in the present moment?
Absolutely, because once you have that foundation, , I think in, in relationships we're about connecting to each other, and relationships tend to go wrong when we [00:08:00] lose that. That connection in all different areas of life. So if I can understand my partner, a little bit better. So in my situation, my husband grew up in a not very financially stable house.
They We're getting evicted right and left and moving to new place new place. He never didn't have food He never didn't have shelter, but there was a lot of turmoil So for him, he has a very sort of anxious attachment style to money So anytime let's say a bill is late or you know I'm an entrepreneur and money flows in all different directions.
He can get Extraordinarily charged and nervous and anxious around money to the point where he can't think about anything else like for the rest of the day, and I came from a very different, very stable financial family, and I am able to take risks. I am able to Potentially do some things [00:09:00] around money that other people might think oh, I don't know.
And we come, you know, from a very different place, but understanding that about him and, you know, this about me allows us to be able, when we're up against a money decision or we're talking about something to be able to almost meet each other as best as we humanly possibly can. In a place of compassion, in a place of understanding.
And it doesn't mean that conflict is not going to come up, but when you can do that, then you can go into the questions about debt. You can go on the questions about spending money, you know, what's important for you to spend money on and, and start to have maybe some of those negotiations around your partner really likes to spend money on this thing.
You think it's maybe a little ridiculous. How do you meet in the middle around those things? So yeah, these questions, they're They're really, I like to think of it like you're laying a foundation of a house, right? And so then you have something strong [00:10:00] to build these walls up from, versus just a straight you're doing everything wrong with money, which is usually the approach we come at.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I, this is just making me think, you know, there's a lot of men. The vast majority of listeners of the show are men and understanding kind of historically there's been this expectation for men to be providers. And in a lot of ways, like there's a lot of fulfillment and purpose in a beautiful way that comes from that.
And so I have spoken with men who are, you know, waiting to start dating or waiting to be into in a relationship until they've met. XYZ, you know, success point or financial point or what have you and just from understanding your experience with finances and also with the work you've done with women as well, like how do you see that kind of coming out?
I think that this is one of the places where we really need to spend time deconstructing [00:11:00] the beliefs that we. We buy into because these are, these are so see, you know, this is a society normal belief, right? Is that the man, no matter how progressive we get with culture, it, there still is this ingrained belief that the man is supposed to be financially stable, have the job, go to work.
The woman could have a job, could not have a job, maybe still is looked at as primary caregiver of, of the children. Maybe the, the, the woman has to start and stop her career if let's say her family gets sick or, you know, there's all, there's all sorts of just societal norms and beliefs that are built in.
And then depending on the family unit that we come from, that can be amplified. So one of the scientific studies shows that by age seven, our money personality is set. So what we saw and experienced as a really young child is deeply ingrained in how we interact with money [00:12:00] today, whether we know it consciously or not.
So I think that, you know, I mean, we hear from women like, Oh, I'm, you know, I hear from my friends I'm going to wait until I find, you know, the man who has it all together financially, or the person who has it all together financially. And I always just chuckle a little bit and explain that You're meeting somebody at a moment in time, and what they have at that particular moment in time is just, it's literally like we just put a pin in it.
It does not mean that that will carry on for the rest of their lives. So picking somebody solely based on financials, I think is a road to relationship destruction. Because life is going to happen. , I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of couples. And I can tell you that. Things happen.
Good, bad, everything in between. If we're picking somebody because we think they're stable, my next question to you is what happens when they're not? Or what happens when [00:13:00] something comes out of the blue? Or what happens when they get laid off from their job? Or what happens if they get sick, hurt, or injured and can't work?
So there's, I think, a deeper, foundational, fundamental Issue that we need to talk about in a relationship and this is really about what does partnership really mean? Does it mean the money the stuff or does it mean? the human the person Those types of things and I think that's a scary place to dig around a little bit for people because it means thinking about some things you Maybe don't want to think about, but I would encourage any, anybody listening to the show that's thinking I have to wait to get in a relationship until I have everything together.
You're setting yourself up for money being an issue versus doing some of this relationship with money, work on yourself and saying, okay, I may not be exactly where I want to be right now, but I can get there [00:14:00] and it's going to be okay. I can be a good partner. I think that's the healthier way to approach this.
[00:15:00] It's almost like looking at what are we making money mean for us, almost like in some ways having this success or this dollar amount is going to equal X, Y, and Z, which then makes us more confident, more interesting, more of a viable partner, whatever that might be. And how can we find that in different places perhaps as well?
Yeah. It's really why, , the surface level question I ask everybody is how do you feel about money? And most people will give me a really quick answer and then I'll say, okay let's dig a little bit deeper. Let's let's dig down. Like I always say seven wise, , if your answer is anxious or good, okay, great.
Tell me why. Why do you feel that way? And then why do you feel that way? And then why do you feel that way? And so my goal is always to get you a [00:16:00] place where you feel like, oh. I feel this way about money because I think if I don't have money, I don't have worth. And if I don't have worth, then nobody will want to be in a relationship with me.
Like when we can get down to whatever that is for you, like down to that place, that's actually the, the repairable place. That's the place we can then start building on top of, but it is, it is scary. It's scary to admit this. And, you know, for, for men and for women, both of us, shame is really at the core of money and money decisions.
And, We feel because we don't have a place to openly talk about money, we stay sort of siloed and we think, I must be a horrible bad person because my money isn't where it should be, or my credit score isn't where it should be, or my bank account isn't, or whatever it might be. Even, even people who make a lot of money.
still [00:17:00] feel this way. So it's, it's sort of irregardless of age, of, of, of income. It's, these are things we struggle with. And this is the work I like to do is try to bring a voice to this so you can have this understanding and, and be, and be the best partner you can be around money.
Wow. Okay. Yes. To all of this.
Sorry, I just, I dumped a lot there.
yeah, and when you're talking about asking why, sometimes I just have this thought in my mind of little kids do that all the time. And they're like, why? Why? But why? But why? It's sit down and be a little kid with yourself for a moment and, and ask that question over and over again.
And yeah, we'll probably find some, some really real truth. buried deep in there. And as you were talking, and it's so interesting, this piece about the, by seven, our money story is established. And I know just from studying psychotherapy that, you know, there's these theories that, yeah, that those formative years of your life really [00:18:00] determined so much about how we perceive the world, money included, it sounds like as well.
And I'm thinking about, you know, just sharing my own personal experience About spending patterns and I witnessed even to this day. My parents do they both are still spend the same way I at least from my perception my mom she'll spend Smaller amounts but more often and then my dad will probably not spend any money and then he'll go and buy a 5, 000 road bike, you know, and it's just one day he comes home and he has purchased this massive thing and witnessing their , very different experiences with money and what comes up with that.
I'm wondering, because we all have the ways that we like to spend and what we like to spend money on and where all that lives. How can we, I guess a part of it is like accepting what our partner choose, how they choose to spend money, but how do you learn how to live, I guess, [00:19:00] copacetically through your choices and not judge the person for, for how they choose to spend their money.
There's an exercise I like to go through with couples. I call it my green light, yellow light, red light. And it's it's a bit of a truth telling exercise. It, it involves sitting down with your bank accounts, whatever, you know, is you're using to have money flow out every single month to pay for your expenses.
And to really look over everything and say, my green light things. Are things I really need to spend money on and you each could have different things like, you know, for instance, I need to spend money on Netflix every month, like to somebody else that might be, you know, a want for me, that's an absolute need.
And so going through this exercise and really figuring out what are the needs what are the things that you do not want to give up spending money on? And you each can have some that are joint, some that [00:20:00] are individual. Remember this is a partnership is a negotiation experience, right? So it's part of understanding you know, my husband loves to buy vinyl records and he could spend all of the money on vinyl records.
And so when we did this experiment, it was like, okay, you like to spend on vinyl. Can we set a certain amount that feels good for us? That you can spend on vinyl. Yeah, okay. So then we find a common place with that green light expense. Our yellow lights are things where we're like, you know what, I could give this up, or I don't have to do this.
These are our wants, but not necessarily something that, you know, if push comes to shove, We need to keep around. So a lot of times people with a, the yellows will go, you know, I actually don't need to spend money on this. I'd rather take that money and spend it more on this thing. And then red light is looking at your expenses going, Whoa, I didn't realize like we still had this subscription plan or we, you [00:21:00] know, money was going here to this or, and you know, the red lights are like the cautionary place of trying not to shame the other person, but just a deeper understanding of this is where all our money's going.
How do we want to configure this? So that we feel really good about our green lights. Maybe we could get rid of some of our red lights and we could work on our yellow lights, but we have this system that we feel like we've negotiated together. Another great experiment to do for, for couples, I highly suggest this for every couple.
I call it a don't ask, don't tell number. So it's coming up with a spending number every month that each person. Can spend without having to ask the other person and this look this could be ten dollars It could be a thousand dollars. It just depends on Your your income you're spending but it's a trust exercise in saying If you're spending up to your limit, I can't come in and ask you a ten questions [00:22:00] about whatever you bought or whatever you bought brought into the house.
Same thing with me. And you know, a lot of these experiments that I do with couples and exercises, it's about building that trust and about allowing the other person to spend money on some of the things they really want to, you spend money on some of the things you really want to, and feel like you've got a partnership around money.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Don't ask, don't tell piece because I was thinking to myself, I'm like, no matter what, there's probably something that we all spend money on that we really don't want our significant, like whether it's girls were like, I don't want my partner to know how much money I spend on my nails every month.
Just whatever it might be, you know, to be able to have that, having that foundation set up and then also having that freedom within your dynamic too. Oh
restricted, and there's a narrative around money that, particularly if we talk about budgeting, that has to come from a negative [00:23:00] point of view. And if we can come together and negotiate some of these things and think about what's important to the other person and allow that freedom and flexibility with the You know, spend whatever you want kind of account. It's extraordinarily helpful in a relationship with money and really helps cut down on some of the conflict and some of the arguments that may pop up. And I, you know, I tell people , when you get into one of those conflicts about money, I want you to think about what it's actually really about.
Is it really about them spending money on that or you doing this? Usually the answer is no. There's something else going on underneath that. Can we pause for a moment and see if we can figure out what that is? Because if we can work on that in the relationship, you know, a lot of times it's trust.
You know, I don't feel like I could trust this person with money. I'm, okay have they done anything [00:24:00] to you know, do not be trustworthy? No, not really. Okay. Where's that come from? I saw my parents. Okay. So now we understand this came from a relationship previous or maybe your family unit.
Okay. Now let's take that understanding. And see if we can bring it differently into this relationship.
my gosh, okay. So we've been talking a lot about, about couples and in looking at building relationships in the dating space it's, there's always, there's this topic, especially, I don't know, probably all of the time, but definitely now of who should pay on a date and looking at the dynamic over time of kind of going back to some of that societal.
Expectations and norms. And I know. I, I, I've had a lot of conversations with men that are dating and they're like, , it's expensive. If I'm looking for a partner and I want to take women on dates and I want to do this, but then also at the same time, sometimes I feel like I'm meeting [00:25:00] women that are just wanting to get a free dinner.
And that's doesn't feel good for me, but I also don't want to, , be jaded and not continue this. So there's this really weird push and pull that's happening. And yeah, how do we get through that?
It's so sticky, isn't it? I think, again, this is not always the most comfortable place or position, but I think being able to have a conversation up front with saying something like, I really want to make you feel special, and I really want to do something that is, you know, a great date or enjoyable for both of us.
However you know, I've, you know, people have said it lots of different ways. Some people are bold and say, my budget for this date is X dollars. Some people say things like, you know, I love to come up with creative ways to have our first date, you know, whether we go to the park or we go, you [00:26:00] know, you come up with a list of ideas that you know are within a range that feels comfortable for you.
And then also, I think throwing the question out about, I think it's perfectly fine for men to throw the question out about, you know, what is your expectation around this date? You know, is your expectation that we, that we split it, is your expectation that I would pay? And I know that seems crazy and there might be a lot of women who are like why is he even asking me this question?
I do not want to go on a date with this person. But if, if someone says no to a date when you're trying to be very transparent and open around a tough subject, then that's probably somebody you're not going to want to be in a relationship with. I would imagine, right? Or, you know, it might not feel comfortable for you.
So I think the hardest thing around money is just we're not used to having the vocabulary around it and feeling confident, but I think it is perfectly acceptable to, to talk about money from that sort of perspective. There was a, [00:27:00] a TikTok movement, I think it was like last year that blew up around, I think that it was like loud budgeting.
And it was this idea that people talked open about You know, here's how much I have each month to go out to dinner with my friends or to go on a date. And you know, this, this is what I've got. So if we can make it work within this, you know, I would love to make you feel super special.
Yeah. Yeah.
you know, we have to consider something else.
Yeah. Okay. This is great. I, it makes me think I have a friend who has been dating a girl for, I think about three months now. And he, he was always the one taking her on the dates, doing all the things. And he reached a point where he kind of was like, I'm, I sat her down and said, Hey, you know, I realized I've spent thousands of dollars on you.
And I am so happy that I've done that and I'm so happy that I get to spend time with you and you're so amazing. And also, it would be really great if we could find some moments when maybe you would [00:28:00] pay for our date, or you would plan something for us. And so it's really uncomfortable to have those conversations.
But like you're saying, I think it really shows a lot about who the person is that you're pursuing. And if someone doesn't want to spend quality time with you in a park or at the beach, or, you know, going on a sunset walk or whatever have you, then, and they're just there to be courted, maybe that's something to, to look at.
I think, yeah, absolutely for sure. It's interesting. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine and she has been dating someone for about a year and she, she sold a business. She made a lot of money. And for the first year, she was basically paying for all their travel expenses. I mean, she was going to, you know, super luxurious, nice places.
The conversation has come up about them moving in together. And she called me just petrified about how do I. Put a plug in in this dynamic of the relationship [00:29:00] and start to create something different and I, you know, it's the same same situation. It's having just an honest conversation about, you know, we might be at different income levels, but is there a way that we could divide up things in a way that feels equitable and fair to both of us?
It doesn't always mean splitting. know, maybe it means I'll buy the dinner and you buy the drinks, or, you know, it could be whatever feels right for the couple, but I feel like if, in the beginning, we can't set the tone of having these conversations and working through these sticky places, it's only gonna get more complicated the longer we're together, because then the stakes are a lot higher the longer we've been with somebody, and, you know, It feels more uncomfortable for us to venture into that because we're weighing out what if this person doesn't want to see me any longer and is that what I really want?
You know, there's just so many other factors that come into play.
Yeah. [00:30:00] Yeah. Oh, this makes me think many years, like in my young twenties, I was dating someone and it was an interesting dynamic because he was in between jobs kind of built, starting to ish, build a new career. And I had an established job and was doing well. And so I was happy to be more of as your, it sounds like your friend, more of that supportive role.
And it was interesting because. Over time, it started to feel more like that was his expectation of me and not so much oh, this is temporary. I unfortunately didn't have the capacity at that point in my life to have the conversations and even really be actually aware of what was unfolding until it was almost like I felt like it had gone too far because I really shifted our dynamic and how I saw him in a lot of ways.
Of course, there are other things, but yeah, it just comes back to being able to have these conversations and face them. [00:31:00] And it seems like so much of this, it is about money and it also is about something completely different. Yes
and you'll find that money and sex. really intertwine themselves. So if we're in a relationship and we're having difficulty around money or nervousness around talking about money, that usually somehow bleeds over into the bedroom. And then there are different dynamics going on there. I've really found with couples, that when we can work on creating a healthy dynamic around money, it doesn't mean again, we're not going to have conflict, but we have some tools in the toolkit of how we can deal with that conflict when it comes up, that those couples tend to create really healthy sexual relationships because they have a deeper understanding.
They've worked through some of these societal beliefs around money that are also. You know, they really bleed into talking about sexual relationships, [00:32:00] too. And so I think that, , all of these sort of big topics in a relationship and these areas of big conflict, they all feed into one another. So if we can help one of those areas, it usually tends to help a lot of the other areas.
000%. And that, in so many ways, is largely what this show is hoping to do, and this group is, community is here for, is because our sex life is so directly connected to the rest of our life, and how we show up in one place is how we show up in other places. So by improving, improving our money, we're going to have better sex, is what it sounds like you're saying.
Yes,
I feel like we need to go out and plaster that message.
yes, it's starting right here right now and and it's so interesting, you know, sex is such a taboo topic to talk about. Money is such a taboo topic to talk about and here we are talking about both of them together in [00:33:00] one and yeah, I want to thank you for, for coming on the show and being so open to talking about both of these things.
Not everyone wants to do that, and most people want to avoid it, but we're moving towards everyone talking about money and everyone talking about sex. Is there anything, , in understanding your expertise with relationships, with working with women, that you think that is really important for men to have , that backstage, understanding to that maybe they didn't have before that would be really helpful.
Hopefully listening to this episode, we've at least cracked the door open a little bit and understanding how emotional money is. And, if we're standing on the male side and we're talking about all of those beliefs that, that men have around money and success and status and being, , the breadwinners and all of those things, we can also look at the other side.
Of women, being in this conflict about am I a wife and a mom? [00:34:00] Am I, do I work? If I'm the breadwinner, how does that change the dynamic? I mean, there's a lot going on on the female side. So I think, if you're listening now, Doing your best to have these conversations about the emotional side about money, , start with that question.
How do you feel about money? And I guarantee you're going to be surprised at the answer that you get from the other side. So I think, , doing your work, you can't control the other person, but doing your work to come in the middle and say, let's approach this with a little bit more curiosity and let's just see what happens is a great place to start.
Amazing. Yeah, I would, I imagine if a man asked me, how do you feel about money? But it's, it would be tough, but it would be, I think, a great way for them to spark a conversation and, and help a woman feel held in that dynamic as well. And, I think it's pretty powerful if you aren't afraid to talk about money.
[00:35:00] I think two of the most important phrases to remember is if someone asks you, why do you want to know this? Say I'm curious or say I'd really like to know, or I'm interested in keep it coming back to them as a place of connection versus conflict. And I think you're going to have a lot of success and exploring money from that perspective.
Yeah, yeah I want to know more about you and this is a part of life and I want to know what it's like for you. Yeah. Amazing.
been hurt by money. Thank you. You know, what has money done to you? We talk about relationship. This is a relationship. How have you experienced money? How have you been hurt by money? How have you had joy around money? Understanding all of that. And most people might not have, like you're saying, the capacity to have the vocabulary around that.
But I guarantee if you ask these questions, they're going to start thinking about it. that's going to spark the [00:36:00] conversation.
Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for coming on the show and, and sharing all of your wisdom.
Thank you for having me.