How to Break Free from the Nice Guy Syndrome
Are you tired of being considered the “nice guy”? Do you want to find a way to be BOTH assertive and compassionate? This week, Kirsten is joined by Nate Ewert, an expert in men's work and leadership, to explore exactly how to stop playing the 'nice guy' and step into your masculine strengths.
Kirsten and Nate discuss the dynamics of masculine and feminine expressions, the balance needed in relationships, and how to cultivate safe, intimate spaces. The conversation covers the importance of assertiveness and emotional intelligence and the profound impact these insights can have on one's sex life and relationships. Let’s get some!
Key Topics:
02:40 Understanding Masculine and Feminine Energies
06:15 Balancing Masculine and Feminine in Relationships
16:41 Stepping Up in Relationships
19:30 Shifting from Nice Guy to Assertive Man
26:56 Understanding the roots of anger & unpacking emotions beneath anger
28:26 The Impact of Societal Expectations on Men's Emotions
30:14 Exploring Shadow Work
33:31 Rites of Passage and Initiation
38:33 Living on the Edge of Comfort
40:53 The Role of Choice in Emotional Expression
42:26 Impact on Intimate Relationships
44:18 Connecting Masculine and Feminine Dynamics
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Episode Transcript
Kirsten Trammell: [00:00:00] Beautiful. Okay. Oh, and I guess I, I, I need to check. How do you pronounce you your last name? Is it E
Nate Ewert: word, E word, E
Kirsten Trammell: E word. Ewert. Okay, cool. Ewert. All right. Well,
Nate Ewert: You were, you were, whatever.
Kirsten Trammell: no, yeah. Nate Ewert, welcome to the Naked Connection. Excited to have you here today.
Nate Ewert: I'm excited to be here.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am in thinking about kind of your area of work and your expertise. I know there we've had conversations about masculine, feminine dynamics. What would you say, like, how do you define what not, what is masculine and what is feminine?
Or like, what does masculine and what does feminine mean to you?
Nate Ewert: That's a great question. Um, and that's, that's [00:01:00] exactly like the journey that I've been on for most of my life is what, you know, what does masculine mean? You know, and for me, that's more that question, you know, what does masculine mean? Um, and I haven't really focused so much on what does feminine mean.
However, over, over the years, um, understanding the interplay between those two, you know, you get a little bit of information on both sides. The way that I see those two things, they're, they're like a yin and a yang, right? So they're a polarity of our existence. They're a way to understand expression and how to show up, how to invite people around us into different states of presence, intimacy, relation.
Um, and, and I think it's, It's really for me about how, well, yeah, how to show up, um, in, in a way that helps you relate and invite others into their authentic self. And so from the masculine standpoint, uh, and I love the, the Chinese dynamics because they're, [00:02:00] you know, their, their initial division in life is the yin and the yang.
So the masculine stuff usually falls on the more yang side of their thing and the feminine stuff falls more on the yin side. So I think about it as energy dynamics and expressions. Right. So, you know, looking at some really basic things we can, we can talk about like logic versus emotion, right? So logic would be more of a masculine expression versus emotion would be more of a feminine expression.
And that's not to say anything about sex or gender or orientation. They're just expressions that we can choose whether we're a man or a woman. And what I've found in doing a lot of the men's work that I've done over the years is When, when we're in our relationship dynamic, that is a man and a woman, if the man is falling more into those masculine expressions, it's it creates the space, the integrity, the um, passion and openness for the feminine to fall into [00:03:00] her more feminine expressions. And so, you know, what is masculine? What is feminine? Like, I see them as just expressions on, on this spectrum. of, of, of available traits or, um, uh, available, uh, ways of being, ways of showing up. So, you know, we can look at, you know, logic, active focus, assertive discipline, um, strength, protective, right? Like those things would fall more on, What I would consider the masculine side of this expression versus things like emotional flow, receptive, nurturing, captivating, empathetic, allowing.
We would see those falling more on the feminine side of that spectrum. And again, all of those things are available to all of us, whether we are men or women, but when it comes to relational dynamics and specifically intimacy and encouraging that really safe space, you know, stepping into one of those on one side allows.
the other person to step into their [00:04:00] side of it to create closeness connection. And so I guess at the end of the day, that's what it's been about for me is creating those, those relations within those intimate containers, um, that, that breed safety, that breed connection, that breed a really deepening of, of love and respect and honesty and vulnerability.
And, and understanding that has been such a huge benefit to my life and my relationships and, and. And not just with my, my intimate partner, you know, with my daughter, with my friends, with, with everything, the more, the more I've been able to stand in integrity and in those more masculine side of the expressions, um, the, the easier life has been
Kirsten Trammell: Huh?
Nate Ewert: for me as a man.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Nate Ewert: Identifies as a man
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. So the more you've, so the more you've been able to step into the masculine expressions, the easier your life has become. Yeah.
Nate Ewert: it's, [00:05:00] it's always pretty simple. Maybe, maybe easy. Isn't the right word
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Ewert: because it does take some strength and some courage sometimes to, to stand in that, to stand in some of that integrity.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things why I think this topic is so interesting to talk about is especially in like recent years about this concept of how there's toxic masculinity and then it's like, well, I imagine as a guy, then it's like, well, who, how do I relate to this part of myself or how can I show up in a way, especially when you're like, if you've had experiences where like.
Being in this expression is really a powerful and supportive way to live. Like, where do you go when society has, like, placed this negative connotation on this specific way of being in the world?
Nate Ewert: Well, that's the challenge. And I think that's, what's been the hardest. Part for me and why I actually for many, many years steered away from a lot of this work. Um, most of the examples that I saw [00:06:00] of masculine men, you know, they were, they were really falling more on the unhealthy side of, of those expressions.
So, you know, we can look at something, you know, these expressions like focused, active, uh, disciplined with a vision, with a purpose, like those are really solid, Strong, healthy expressions of masculinity, but you take those too far, and it becomes destructive. It becomes aggressive. It becomes narrow minded, frustrated, um, cold, um, unemotional, and, you know, those, those types of expressions, unfortunately, are seen a lot out there in the media, and, um, I mean, even with some of like the, the alpha male education that's out there, you know, it can, I think that can cross sometimes into the more unhealthy side of those expressions. And, and, you know, growing up in the way that I did, mostly what I saw were those unhealthy. Expressions they were they came from a place of [00:07:00] fear. They came from a place of control and and I never really got to understand or see modeled for me what assertiveness looks like without control what you know purpose and drive looks like without aggression and and it's absolutely possible.
It's it's there. It's we're capable of doing it. Um, and so You It can be challenging at times to talk about like, well, hey, here's how to be more assertive, but do it kindly and compassionately. Right. And even for myself, I mean, I, you know, I spent many years as the nice guy, as the doormat, as, you know, falling into.
Some of the weakened kind of expressions of masculinity. So not necessarily aggressive or unhealthy, but just really weak, right? Like uninitiated.
Kirsten Trammell: hmm.
Nate Ewert: and when you're, you're in that state of, of lack of initiation into some of these things, assertiveness can look really aggressive. [00:08:00] And, and, and so for me, I steered pretty far away from those for a while until my life was falling apart.
I hit rock bottom. I, you know, I lost a job. I lost another marriage. There's a second one. Uh, I, you know, Taking responsibility, I think, is another big part of that, that side of the spectrum on kind of like a masculine expression of taking responsibility. And I finally got to that point in my life where I had to initiate into that.
It was like, okay, my life sucks. I'm the common denominator. What needs to change? And, and so I started looking at these things very differently. Like, okay, yeah, I've steered away from assertiveness. I've steered away from discipline. I've steered away from, uh, strength, you know, because I, I don't want to be seen as, as that toxic or that unhealthy expression.
Um, and you know, some of that required some shadow work, some really deep healing work. Um, some of it required healing some of the wounded feminine [00:09:00] within me as well. Um, but, uh, but a lot of the wounded masculine. And that can be a little scary. So, you know, as far as how do I, how do I address that? It's like, well, there is a different way, right?
It doesn't have to be necessarily aggressive, necessarily about control. But as long as you're not coming from a place of control or fear, these expressions can be really beautiful and amazing. And And invite the people were in relation with into those things as well, and see that and see that integrity with himself.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to think about showing up in this way without having some of the, I don't know if it's the darkness or like the, the, the downsides of things or how things can get twisted. And I am, and, you know, I, I look at it in, As a, as a woman, like recognizing that, well, I guess, you know, there's been like this big push to have like [00:10:00] boss women and like really women that are totally stepping into being in a masculine kind of energy or way of existing in the world, and I'm just curious from your perspective of like, how does that impact relationships?
Nate Ewert: Yeah. Um, well, it's, I feel like I have to throw some caveats before I
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Nate Ewert: that question, because like these these topics are really polarizing. You know, and you know, I just want to say, like, we're talking about expressions here, right? And so all of these things are human expressions. And so assertiveness is available to all of us. You know, discipline is available to all of us. Nurturing, compassion, flow, you know, all of these things are choices we can make and how we want to show up. And I think it's amazing that women are taking the reins and [00:11:00] they're, they're showing up, they're becoming CEOs. They're, they're taking leadership roles.
They're, they're doing all these things that, you know, in our society would traditionally be seen as like a masculine role and what, you know, another kind of caveat I want to put out there is these things I'm talking about are expressions. They're not about gender roles. They're not about the, like, it's, it's a way to, it's a way to show up. And, you know, one thing I've found, especially, and I've worked with a lot of women that are in those roles and, you know, they're, they're stepping in and they're aware of it. They're like, yeah, I have to step into this, this expression, this way of being that doesn't feel always natural that, um, you know, I can do it.
And I will say most of the women I know that do that, they do it very, very well. I, I actually, a lot of times think that, that women can step into those expressions a little bit better than men, um, but maybe don't necessarily want to at their core. And, and what I see is a lot of, um, a lot of fatigue [00:12:00] and, you know, they, they really desire that ability, you know, to be able to come home and fall into their more feminine expressions.
And, and I think a lot of women that, um, you know, they're in those, those more leadership roles, CEO type positions, um, there's probably some shadow work needed. And that to kind of figure out, you know, some of the drive and the motivation there, but I think they also need in relation, somebody who can meet them there and show up just as strongly in it when they're not out there doing it so that they can soften, so that they can fall in to those more feminine expressions because they're not able to in, in, in, of their life, work, whatever that might be.
I also think that there is a lot of room for women in those positions to bring a lot of those feminine expressions in. And I think we need [00:13:00] it. so bringing some of that nurturing, bringing some of that, um, receptiveness, some of that allowance for emotional expression in the workplace. You know, I was. I was talking to a client just this week about, about this exact thing.
And, and, you know, how do, how do we talk about, um, you know, women owned businesses versus men owned businesses and, you know, using the idea of masculine expression, right? Like a lot of businesses, corporate businesses that are run by men, it's all about the purpose. Of the business. Here's the product we're selling.
Everything is about that. It's this very direct drive and focus to you show up, you do this, and this is what we're doing. There's no time for anything else. Right. Versus, um, I work with, uh, quite a few women who, who work in women owned business, and these are accounting firms. They're, they're also, you know, kind of big corporate things that can be there and they have a better sense of community. They have more [00:14:00] room for. You know, the allowance of emotional expression, they have more nurturing available there's so it's, it's a lot more community based and there's a lot more allowance for, I guess, intimate connection between their employees. It's not just this, here's the product. This is what we're doing.
There's no room for anything else. And I think that's really important to look at. And there's a balance, right? There's a balance between both of those. Um, that I, that I think we're missing. And that's what all of this is about. It's about that balance of like, here's, here's this really great expression that, that can create sales, that can create drive, that can create this stuff.
And then here's this other side of the expression that, that really focuses on more of the human nature aspect of things and not burning people out and, uh, you know, creating space for, um, you know, the human side. So I personally think we need both. And this, this is for me, this, this work is never about, um, this is better than that [00:15:00] or anything.
It's how do we, how do we create the balance between the two? How can, how can, you know, one side of this masculine expression, encourage and develop the side of the feminine expression and invite it out and celebrate it.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. I'm just, as you're sharing this thinking about, I mean, I, I only know my own experience through all of this and, and thinking, you know, I've really been working on finding how how to find more focusing more on creating that balance like you're saying I think is a great way to put it because yeah, not wanting to live all the time in one expression versus the other and I really recognized that when I feel a sense of safety, that's when I am able to be more in a feminine expression.
Whereas if I don't feel safe, then I'm like, okay, well now I have to protect myself and I have to like show up in all of these different kinds of ways. So that for, that was just like my own personal understanding of like, okay, now that I know this, now I can feel. find ways to create more balance for myself as I [00:16:00] kind of live between the two.
Cause yeah, if you live in one all the time, you're probably going to be a little lopsided figuratively and maybe physically. But I think about, um, I guess if let's say that someone's listening and they're in a relationship with, an amazing woman who is in that place, who is leading that kind of CEO role as well in like their work life, or maybe even within the relationship itself.
And that isn't necessarily something that, that a guy wants to experience all of the time. What would you say they could do to support shifting that or just support? Building the relationship that they do want to have with this person.
Nate Ewert: Well, they need to step up and, um, and not man up, but step up, look, look for ways to, to find, um, opportunities to show up in those masculine expressions. Um, and I've, uh, [00:17:00] I've, I've been in a relationship with a woman who was that, you know, go get her, go, go, go building a huge business. Um, and, and it definitely created.
You know, a little bit of conflict here and there with, you know, how she was showing up versus how I was showing up what I, what I found kind of looking back on it now in the moment, it was sort of hard to see these things, but there were absolutely areas where I needed to be showing up in more of these expressions, but because she was doing it, there wasn't room for me, or I felt like she wouldn't allow me to, um, and, um, And you know that that kind of creates its own issues of things that need to be discussed and worked on and, um, But again, I think finding those opportunities of like where you can be decisive as a man in a relationship like that.
Where can you bring logic? You know, where can you be assertive? Um, there's, you know, if, if she's [00:18:00] out having to make big decisions all day and she gets home, like, don't ask her what she wants for dinner, you know, like, like step into those things where you can take, you know, take the lead on, on a lot of things in the home.
And, you know, whether it's, you know, whether she's the breadwinner or not, if she's out there doing that stuff, like she needs that safe space. Where she can come home and relax into it. And so like really taking sovereignty over that space when you are together, when you are in that intimate space so that she knows she has that safe place to land is really important.
And that will mean more than anything else to her, I think.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. No, that's beautiful. And, and you mentioned a few minutes ago about like being this nice guy and kind of the flip side of how, how it's possible to show up. If someone is recognizing like, Hey, I'm actually living in this place right now. I'm being kind of the doormat. How do they shift? [00:19:00] How do you start to make that change within yourself?
Yeah, yeah,
Nate Ewert: one of the things that helped me shift that was quite a while ago, I heard that, um, nice guys are just narcissists. They're just victims. And, and I say that from a place of being a nice guy and a doormat for many years and thinking that I was a victim. And so there, there is a responsibility that needs to be taken for that.
And in owning that, and that can sound pretty harsh. Um, but you know, people pleasing, uh, those, those kinds of expressions, you know, they can be an unhealthy masculine expression that can be an unhealthy feminine expression. Um, and it can also be a really like uninitiated, weakened, um, space of fear. Um, and, [00:20:00] and it's challenging, uh, because you do have to start looking at, you know, where am I not being assertive?
You know, where am I not staying focused on the thing that I want? Where am I not taking action toward these things that I want? Where am I being more passive and trying to just allow things to happen without, you know, being direct without making the moves that I know I need to make. And. And that's hard work.
It's hard to look at yourself and go, okay, you know what this, the common denominator is me. And that, that was my experience with it was it took life throwing me a whole lot of two by fours right to the head and, and kicking my ass. To for me to finally go, okay, I'm doing this for, uh, you know, I hope that, you know, people listening, if they are in that situation, like, don't have to go through that.
And, you know, a lot of good lessons come from pain. [00:21:00] They, they are initiations. Um, and that's, uh, I think that's another side of the masculine that. That we don't have necessarily in our society is these initiations into these expressions so that they feel more comfortable. Unfortunately for me, for a lot of this stuff in my life, I had to get to a point of pain that was so tremendous that the pain of figuring out how to be more assertive was less than the pain I was in. And, and, you know, we see that with a lot of change, you know, any change we want to make. Sometimes our current situation has to be more painful than the change feels or more painful than the fear of changing is. So, you know, facing your fear, up, you know, understanding that the, the feminine can be friends with the nice guy.
The feminine can be very nurturing and motherly. To the nice guy. Um, but Hey, this is a sex and intimacy podcast. Like [00:22:00] if you want real good intimacy and real connection, like that's not going to come from being the nice guy. That doesn't mean you're not nice. It doesn't mean you're not kind. Right. But, but nice comes typically from a place of fear, uh, from fear of really stepping up and stepping into these expressions.
More boldly.
Kirsten Trammell: yeah, yeah. And I appreciate the way you describe that because I think in thinking about the dynamic of an intimate relationship, like when a man. sets his own boundaries or says what he's a yes for and no for. Like, you can do that in a kind way and that creates a level of understanding and attraction that wouldn't have existed if you just went along, along with whatever the other person said.
It's like flat or something.
Nate Ewert: Yeah.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Ewert: talking about taking action, being assertive. I think I was [00:23:00] 19 and I had, I had had a couple of girlfriends and, um, I was, I was getting to know a new, a new woman and we had hung out a couple of times and, and I liked her. And I, I remember asking her if I could kiss her and there was definitely some connection and there was some vibe there.
And I was saying goodbye to her and I was like, can I kiss you? And it was like, the invitation was already there. The moment was there, you know, she was leaning in and, and the nice guy, part of me was like, Oh, I need to ask permission. And I wasn't recognizing the things I wasn't taking assertiveness. I wasn't taking action in that moment with an open invitation and it completely killed it.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Nate Ewert: up at me and she's like, why did you ask? And, and again, there was, there was a lot of things going on here, but, but that's the, like, that's that intimacy thing, right? Like that taking action, that standing in your integrity and [00:24:00] knowing your audience, knowing the situation, knowing, and that's, I feared those spaces a lot. And, and I think as the nice guy we do, right. We want to make sure that, that everything's okay. We want to, and you know, we could get into a whole conversation about consent, but, but it's like, but it's that kind of thing, especially when you're already in an intimate established relationship, right? Like, so yeah, your yes is your nose staying integrity with those, but sometimes taking action, being that strong thing that knows what it wants and goes after it and.
That can also be very healthy and very unhealthy, right? That's, that's one of those situations where the line can feel a little fuzzy.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, yeah. And, and I guess in thinking about that, I mean, cause it seems like so much of it comes down to like reading an individual and having that, like [00:25:00] that, the awareness of what's unfolding. Like this is, thank you for sharing. This is a great example of like, okay, like she's sending you all of these signals of a yes.
And like being able to read that and be aware of it. And yeah, I, I guess what, like, what would you say are, If you have any, like, tools or exercises or practices that you recommend for somebody to build more emotional intelligence or emotional capacity,
Nate Ewert: uh, well, for
Kirsten Trammell: you know?
Nate Ewert: long time, there's a, and I can probably find a link to it, but there's like an emotional wheel that's out there that's available and like in the inner circle, it kind of talks, there's like 10 or 12 main emotions. It's like, you know, anger, Sadness, happy, you know, just basic, basic emotions.
And then as it spreads out in, in the wheel and to the outer thing, it takes each one of those and [00:26:00] breaks it down into more, right? Like anger is now, you know, frustrated, irritated, you know, fear is anxious, you know, so then it kind of. more on those. And I had that on my fridge for years. And whenever I was feeling a certain way, I would look at it and I would go, okay, what am I feeling?
Well, I'm feeling a little angry. So now look at anger and then I go, oh, well actually, okay, maybe I'm irritated because of this situation. Or if I was feeling, You know, really happy. I could look at that and it would give me more, more words. And so, kind of, you just sort of have to explore that and be willing to look at what you're feeling.
You know, for men, anger is allowed.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Nate Ewert: And that's about it.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Nate Ewert: Right? At least that's what we're taught. And, and so, Unfortunately, anger is really a secondary emotion. So it's always showing up because it's either covering something else up that you don't want to feel or you don't understand how to feel [00:27:00] or it's showing up to protect a boundary, right?
Those are pretty much the only two reasons we feel anger. We're protecting boundary or we're not feeling something underneath it. And so if you can, you know, figure out what that initial sense of what you're feeling is A lot of times for man, it's anger, maybe it's jealousy, um, and then go underneath that, like what's underneath that?
Is there hurt? Is there sadness? Is there, is there grief? Is there worry? Is there, and, and, you know, it's like once you can unlayer that a little bit more, you start to understand more of the inner workings, and men are just as emotional as women, we have the capacity to feel the All of the things as well.
Um, we're just not taught how to understand them
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Nate Ewert: as readily as, as women are, and men just don't talk about it a lot. And so we just don't have those opportunities. And so it does take a lot of self reflection and giving yourself space to just look at it. [00:28:00] Okay. Here's what I'm feeling. This is what's on the surface.
So maybe, you know, it's this big bubbly anger. I'm feeling red in the face, whatever that is on the surface. Um, Give yourself a moment to take a couple breaths and feel like, okay, I'm angry. So I know that's either covering this up or it's protecting a boundary. Is there a boundary I'm trying to protect?
Or is there something deeper that I'm not willing to feel?
Kirsten Trammell: Mm hmm.
Nate Ewert: And that's where I started of just like, okay, I'm feeling this way. Is there something underneath it that I'm trying to protect myself from? Maybe that boundary I'm protecting is a boundary within myself. You know, it was from some fear of feeling this other thing.
I think another big reason why when men are. necessarily is versed in feeling those deeper emotions is because a lot of times when we're younger and we have a feeling like hurt come up, you know, like, Oh, this person said this to me and it hurt, you know, a lot of times the, the initial reaction of people around us or our dads or our buddies or whatever, like, Oh, whatever, get over it.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.[00:29:00]
Nate Ewert: You know, and so there's no room for the actual expression of it, which is unfortunate, uh, most of the men that I work with, when we start to uncover those things, like we find there's a deep, deep well of, of unfelt, unprocessed emotions, and they're really beautiful things. Um, that, that we can give space for, that we can feel and, you know, if we look at the logical side of, of that expression, right, the masculine expression is logic versus emotion, we can't be logical about them until we feel them, until we give them space, until we name them, and, and expressing an emotion, naming an emotion, looking at it, really diving in and trying to figure out what's underneath there, you know, that, that, that expression of it will prevent us from projecting it.
Kirsten Trammell: Mm
Nate Ewert: So it's like there's, there's a difference. So there's another spectrum we can look at another yin and a yang of expression versus projection,
Kirsten Trammell: Mm hmm.
Nate Ewert: right? Most men [00:30:00] run around projecting all their shit because they're unwilling to look at what's inside and actually express it. Expression can be kind, expression can be vulnerable and even nurturing and compassionate.
Projection is almost always about fear and control.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. I think
Nate Ewert: That was a lot. That was a
Kirsten Trammell: No, I know. It's so much. It is. And in thinking like, uh, let's say if someone doesn't fully understand what you mean by projection, could you explain kind of what that, what that is?
Nate Ewert: Um, when, when we have unprocessed emotions, things that are going on in the shadow side. All right. So a lot of the work that we do is shadow work, right? It's looking at the things that we don't normally see, right? Because it's in our shadow. It's dark. We can't necessarily see it. Those are things that we've hidden away.
And over time, those things will build up. And then our reactions to certain situations, like when we get into a reactive state, so somebody says something, it triggers an emotional response and we react without [00:31:00] thinking, right? That is a projection of an unprocessed emotion. And a lot of the things I've worked on in myself and what I, what I try to help people understand through a lot of the different work that I do is if you can give yourself a moment to feel what you're feeling, you can then express instead of project.
Projection leads to hurt. to hurting other people. Projection leads to misunderstandings. It leads to passive aggressiveness. Um, it's, it's getting these things out usually in an aggressive, in a hurtful way. So when we talk about unhealthy masculine being destructive, being aggressive, being narrow minded, it's usually a projection of, of these unprocessed or repressed expressions that we haven't really given space to.
Kirsten Trammell: Okay, cool. Yeah.
Nate Ewert: that make sense?
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. No, no, 100%. Um, and it's like, it's like that experience has to go somewhere and because it's not being expressed, it has to be let out in some way, shape or form. And then that's [00:32:00] usually put onto somebody else subconsciously.
Nate Ewert: Exactly.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Um, well, and thinking about I like, it's so funny that you brought up the emotions wheel, um, because I'm in grad school and we definitely have those things all over the place.
And it's interesting because, you know, a lot of people know, like, kind of like these primary emotions of like anger, joy, sadness, like fear. But there's just such a variety of what's possible in terms of what someone can feel. And a lot of us don't actually have the vocabulary or the awareness to discern between, yeah, anger or frustration or like joy and peace or whatever it is, you know, there's so many different things that can kind of get stuck in that.
And, um, It's, I, I found, I don't know if this is true for you or other people, but for me when I get angry, if I actually, I found that if I started to actually allow myself to like be angry and like move through the anger, [00:33:00] what I actually felt is always comes on the other side of it. Like if I allow myself to just be really angry.
And then usually I would, like, cry immediately after, like, if you get really mad and then I'm like, why am I not crying? I'm like, oh, it's because I was actually really sad and I was, like, afraid to feel that or I didn't want to acknowledge that that's really how I felt. So I kind of find that anger can sometimes be this doorway into the truth of what I'm experiencing.
Um, yeah. Yeah. And, and what I find really fascinating is that So anger is the only emotion that kind of really in society men are allowed to feel, but also at the same time, like now it's not anymore. Like you can't get in fights. You can't if the second someone raises their voice, it's like people are going to file a restraining order.
Like it's just become, uh, at least in California, I feel like more hypersensitive to this. And you brought up these rights of initiation, which is something that I think is a really beautiful [00:34:00] part of life. And It seems like those are kind of being shut down, like thinking about, you know, like, yeah, and maybe in some cases, probably for good cause, but like, you know, um, like the hazing that happens in college or like on like going on to sports teams and having like this initiation process or like these initiations and rites of passage just aren't happening anymore.
And part of that I think is connected to some of everything that we're talking about, um, along the way.
Nate Ewert: Yeah. The, you know, in a lot of men's circles, they, they talk about like the archetypes. So there's the king, the warrior, the lover, the magician, and there's a whole lot of others too, the trickster, and the green man, and all these things, and they all have You know, like a child version and in each one of those things like requires an initiation process to go from like the boyhood expression of what that is that kind of still needs mom and, you know, [00:35:00] needs needs care and needs a lot of help and maybe doesn't take a lot of responsibility and then initiating into this.
This other version, right, that's like, oh, this is the man who takes responsibility now and and there's usually something that happens, right? And, you know, in a lot of indigenous cultures, maybe it's the first hunt and the first kill, right? And even in like the Jewish community, you know, they have the bar mitzvah and the bat mitzvah, right?
And it's, While maybe there's not a, like a physical task associated to it for, for the men, there's still like, there's a learning process. They have to go through these courses, they have to do these things and then they have to present it, right? So they have to put themselves out there and present it in a way.
And, and that's a really beautiful thing to, to have this, like, okay, there's this line and we're coming up to this line and here's what you have to do to cross the line. And now you've crossed the line. So you don't get to go back. Because now you've initiated into this new way of being [00:36:00] and, and, and that's why I like like the first hunt and the first kill and things like that because those, those are so much more visceral, right?
Or, um, you know, you mentioned sports, you know, yeah, working with a coach who's an asshole, right? Like that, that initiates you into some things. And so there are ways in our society that we initiate. It's just not intentional. Right? Like we go into different things and different, um, different avenues of life and, and, and we will get, we will learn things, right?
We'll have these perspective shifts. And I think ultimately, like, that's what an initiation is, right? It's a perspective shift into a new way of being. It takes awareness. It takes really looking at yourself. It takes for men and for women too, but like for men, it takes digging down really deep and understanding you have so much more available to you, so much more strength.
And it's like, sometimes it's, it's visceral to pull it out. [00:37:00] Sometimes it does take getting in that first fight with the bully at school or things like that. And While I don't condone bullying or anything like that, it is a way our society has kind of figured out how to do some of these things without an intentional way. Um, and, you know, I was bullied as a kid and I fought back against my bullies. I had, you know, I had the fight against my dad when I was 16 and, you know, set my, my course after that, that, you know, I was never going to be that way like he was. And right. So all of those, all of those little things are, you know, Our initiations, um, and we're constantly, we're constantly being initiated.
It's just not intentional. And what I, I think what I've realized with this work I've been doing for the last decade or so is I've intentionally walked into those initiations, right? Like, okay, I'm going to go into this thing that's going to be really hard and I'm going to come out different.[00:38:00]
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah,
Nate Ewert: Yeah,
Kirsten Trammell: I love that. I love being able to look at these life experiences and choose for them to be your own initiation if you want them to be. And I think that makes everything more meaningful when you come at it from that, from that angle.
Nate Ewert: for sure.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah, and and I guess like in in thinking about all of this because I think sometimes like I know I can do this where I look at everything and I'm like, oh all doom and gloom, but I guess you know You kind of like have a capacity to look at these things in a really beautiful way of more Opportunity as opposed to limitations of like this is how I'm supposed to be.
It's like no like This is how we can be. And you have choices. You can oscillate between the two. And, and for, I be curious for you, like, how have you found the capacity to create this balance that you live in now?
Nate Ewert: [00:39:00] How have I found the capacity to live in it? Um,
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Like
Nate Ewert: well, it was,
Kirsten Trammell: yeah.
Nate Ewert: I think it was always there. I just wasn't aware of it. Um, one of the things that I, I first started doing, I don't, I don't remember what book I read at that point, but there was this idea of Of initiation and kind of growing as a man and in like disciplines and things like that.
And it was just the idea of leaning just over your edge, right? Finding opportunities to, you know, go just a little bit out of your comfort zone. If we go too far, we're going to fall on our face. Right? So it's, it's finding those things that are just outside the edge of our comfort. So whether it's, um, you know, pushing the weight just a, just one more rep when you think you can't.
Maybe it's, you know what, just getting up the nerve to talk to the barista at the coffee shop and ask her out. Or, you know, just [00:40:00] putting yourself in a situation that's like, you know what, this feels uncomfortable, but I'm going to do it anyways. And the more we do that, the more that capacity grows. So, but it, but it doesn't take a lot, you know, you don't have to change everything and go do biggest race that you can find, or, you know, it's like, go a little bit, just a little bit past your edge, but keep doing it. And keep finding those opportunities to do it. And yeah, it'll be a little uncomfortable. And sometimes, you know, you may go a little too far and fall in your face, but you can pick yourself back up and your capacity will grow.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if this is the book that you read, but I read the talent code. Um, I guess by like number of years ago and he, they basically talked about, they looked at all of like the most successful athletes, performers, artists, whatever out there. And they found that they were most, most often living just on this edge where they weren't, it wasn't too easy where they didn't have to [00:41:00] apply themselves, but it also wasn't so hard that they failed.
It was just enough where they had, yeah. And I think living. Like just on that line in life is really. It a helpful way to create, like, massive change. It doesn't have to be, uh, as you're saying, like, to go do these huge things, it's doing all these small things repeatedly that make a biggest difference.
Well,
Nate Ewert: Well, and that's discipline, you know,
Kirsten Trammell: yeah.
Nate Ewert: well, and living on that line. I, I liked the way that you talked about that. I might have to read that book. I have not read that
Kirsten Trammell: It's good.
Nate Ewert: Um,
Kirsten Trammell: yeah.
Nate Ewert: things I talk about with these expressions is choice and living on the line is challenging because. It allows us to choose our direction in any moment, but that means we have to be aware of our direction in any moment.
You know, am I going to choose to push the weight a little bit more today, [00:42:00] or am I going to choose to let myself relax? Am I going to choose to push here or. Choose here. But even with the expressions, you know, in, in certain cases, you know, with my partner, there are times when, you know, I'm on that line and something is coming up between us and I have to choose, am I going to choose the logical expression here?
Or am I going to choose the emotional expression? Right? And so even this, this spectrum, this polarity, it's like, there's a line in the middle. And I will tell you the middle, cool. Road is the hardest one to travel because it allows you to be in choice all the time. And choice can be scary. But choice is also important.
Kirsten Trammell: I love that. Um, well, in thinking about everything we talked about, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think is important to address when we look at, when we look at masculine, feminine, not being the nice guy anymore, all of these sorts of things?
Nate Ewert: You know, I was [00:43:00] not sure where all this was going to go when we started talking today. And without, you know, going too far into it, all of these things that we've been talking about make an impact. In the bedroom.
Kirsten Trammell: Mm. Mm hmm.
Nate Ewert: and it's like kind of at the core of all the work that I've done over the years, like that has been like the biggest benefit, like it has built and strengthened that intimate container that I've been able to hold with my partners.
And I don't want to say for them because it, it takes both. Um, but the, again, that integrity, that choice, that ability to express versus project, right. It builds that safety. It builds that, that compassion and trust within, within all of your relationships, but most importantly, in your intimate relationships.
And, and it is that invitation for your feminine counterpart to show up in amazing [00:44:00] and beautiful ways, ways that, like, I can't even explain. Like, I, I, I'm blown away. Over and over again by how, you know, stepping into some of these things that I thought were so hard and were impossible or were too aggressive or were controlling because I only saw unhealthy expressions of them have nurtured such a beautiful space. Or vulnerability for expression, for intimacy, connection, pleasure, ecstasy, all of those things. So like at the end of the day, like that's kind of what all this is about. At least that's what it's been about for me.
Kirsten Trammell: Oh my gosh. I love that. I
Nate Ewert: glad you're laughing.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. No, I appreciate that you brought that up because I think it's so true and I mean, I find that like how we are in our life is often how we show up in our sex life and kind of vice versa. So if you can find the ways to enhance your dynamic when you're out living your life, you [00:45:00] can then do that.
And so, change the way that you have sex as well.
Nate Ewert: Absolutely.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And, and, um, I recently had, um, A conversation with this author, um, Ogi Ogas, and he was talking about how he looked at all of these, um, pornography searches and found that out of, like, regardless of sexual identity, sexual orientation, like relationship style, like the number one Like search and the number one kind of desire that all humans have is like this, this dominance and submission type of a dynamic within intimacy.
And I think that we could kind of like, look at those words a little similarly in like, some ways in comparison to the yin and yang as well. And, um, how like everyone really craves that and wants that. And it's interesting to have this conversation and understand that it's so closely connects with that as well as is
Nate Ewert: Well, and we could, you know, we could look at [00:46:00] dominance and submissive as, as a masculine and feminine dynamic. Right. And I, and I've, I mean, in my own intimate relationships, like, I have seen that when I show up. In that strength. And again, it's not control. It's not aggression or destructive. But when you when the masculine can show up in that strength, it allows, you know, whether it's dominating or courageous or just just strong, right?
You show up in that integrity that like, yes, this is this is who I am. This is what I'm here for. This is what I'm doing. And this is what I'm going to do to you. Right. Like that allows the feminine to fall into that beautiful, we can use the word submissive, but it's allowance. It's flow. It's passive. It is receptive.
It's captivating. And, and I will say what I've found in, in my, my partnerships where [00:47:00] the, my partner has allowed herself to fall into that. First of all, it is the most amazing and beautiful thing I've ever witnessed, um, and it allowed me to show up even more and to learn and to lean even more over the edge and, and, and to gain that.
And then it becomes an interplay because then you're both just playing in that expression, right? It's like, you know, then, then maybe she can choose the more dominant expression and you can choose the more submissive expression. And, and like, it becomes this really amazing flow, but it takes that, it takes that safety and trust.
And that, that comes in all those other areas, right? It's like, you can't, you can't develop it there in the bedroom until it is seen everywhere else. You know, the feminine is always testing the masculine. I think we talked about this a little bit before the call, but, uh, you know, just asking, what do you want for dinner?
Like that is a test from the feminine to find out, are you going to be decisive? Are you going to take the [00:48:00] lead? Can I relax into and let myself flow and know that you got me?
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Oh my goodness. It's all connected
Nate Ewert: It is.
Kirsten Trammell: in all of these really beautiful ways. Um, well, Nate, thank you so much for coming on this show. Where, I know you have a lot going on and I know you have a retreat coming up too and I was looking at all of your info. So where can men find you if they want to connect with you, join your men's group, all of those sorts of things.
Nate Ewert: Yeah. So, um, ignitermensgroup. com is, is my website. We do, um, in person, uh, classes every other Tuesday here in Denver. We have some online classes as well. We have a three month group coaching program. I do some one on one coaching and then yeah, there's a retreat coming up in August. We're going to go up to Breckenridge.
It'll be a small group. I'm thinking eight guys total, but we're going to do some breathwork. I'm a breathwork facilitator, and that's been a huge thing for shadow work and healing trauma and all of those things for me. And I think it's really important for [00:49:00] men to engage in that. But it'll be a community.
We're going to do some breathwork and we're going to hike a 14 or so nice, big challenge. I might be leaning over the edge for more over the edge for something, but we're going to do an easier one. But yeah, I'm really excited for that one. It should be a pretty powerful three days. So yeah,
Kirsten Trammell: Cool. Well, Nate, thank you so much for coming on the show. Appreciate having you here.
Nate Ewert: absolutely. Thank you.