The Real Reasons Couples Divorced And How To Prevent Them
50% of marriages end in divorce. Which side of this statistic do you want to be on?
In this episode, you will learn the real reasons couples get divorced adn how you can prevent them from happening to you. Your host, Kirsten dives into this topic with a seasoned New York City-based divorce attorney, Dennis Vetrano.
Dennis and Kirsten explore how to avoid divorce, what to do if you find yourself in the divorce process, and how to approach ending relationships from a new perspective.
Dennis shares insights from his 25 years of experience, discussing the most common causes of divorce and the tools you ultimately need to avoid losing the quality of your relationship. Dennis also speaks to the role of sex in relationships, the importance of prenuptial agreements, and the emotional and legal complexities of divorce. Get ready for some very actionable and practical advice for both preventing divorce and navigating the process if it becomes inevitable.
Key Topics:
03:34 Common Causes of Divorce
06:08 The Role of Intimacy in Relationships
09:13 Legal Aspects of Divorce
13:33 Ways to make sure you choose the right partner
20:13 Whether or not you should get a prenuptial agreement
24:54 Postnuptial Agreements Explained
27:30 Heartbreaking Realities of Divorce
32:35 Gender Dynamics in Divorce Filings
40:21 Advice for Men Going Through Divorce
41:55 Remarriage After Divorce
Connect with Dennis Vetrano
https://www.instagram.com/drvlaw/
https://www.tiktok.com/@drvlaw
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Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] Does the thought of divorce hold you back from getting married? Or are you in a relationship right now and worried that it won't last. Welcome to the naked connection. This is the show for driven men to reach a sexual mastery and build deep connections. It's Kiersten your soon to be licensed sex therapist.
And in this episode, we are covering all things, divorce. How to avoid divorce, what to do if you find yourself in the divorce process and ultimately. How to take a new approach to ending relationships. Today to have this conversation. We have Dennis for Toronto onto the show. Dennis is a New York city-based divorce attorney, and he is here to share from his experience. Ultimately, how not to end up in his office. After decades of working with hundreds, if not thousands of clients, he is really the perfect man to share why people actually get divorced, how you can prevent it from [00:01:00] happening.
And if you're going through the process yourself right now, He shares a new perspective on ending relationships and just looking at relationships, marriage divorce. From a really different angle. So I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. You guys. Let's get some. [00:02:00]
Kirsten Trammell: Dennis Matrano. Welcome to the Naked Connection. We're so excited to have you here.
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And so this is going to be an interesting episode because the show is about intimacy. It's about relationships.
You know, for anyone that's just tuning in, I'm curious if you could share with everyone what it is that you do because we haven't had anyone on the show yet that does what you do.
Dennis Vetrano: That's an interesting question because , I'm a lawyer, I'm a divorce attorney, and I've been handling divorce and family law litigation cases for about 25 years, but I find that lately what I'm trying to do is, you know, approach these dynamics in a Integrative, sort of comprehensive approach , to see what leads people to the divorce process, , how can we avoid [00:03:00] those pitfalls and , so I'm still a practicing divorce litigation and family law attorney, but I also do a whole lot about, you know, providing advice about how to navigate the process and, , how to avoid it if possible.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. And in preparing for connecting with you, I was doing a little researching and I found this a few years ago, but this stat that it was every 42 seconds there's a divorce and like in, so basically in an hour that equates to 86 divorces. So basically in this episode. 86 couples are going to be divorced, which is a huge number and really wild.
And I'm curious from your experience, what are some of the main reasons you've seen that lead people to divorce?
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, and that's a staggering statistic, and I think the way you paint it that way, it just it shows you like, , how eye opening, , those numbers are. You know, you're gonna get those typical things like, , affairs, addiction , money problems abuse, , those are your top four, [00:04:00] right?
But I think what we're seeing Now in large part is, gender roles, also playing a part in it and, women shifting in a direction where they're being more the leader of the finances and now they're also continuing to be the leader of the household as well. , guys, , maybe lagging behind a little bit on making that transition.
that shift to more of, you know, what, what customarily used to be like the domesticated, sort of role in the household and, and guys are lagging behind and, and ladies are kind of ahead of the curve. So that kind of shift there and, and, , in large part, I'm speaking mainly to women, they're getting frustrated with that process.
So we're finding that as emerging as, , let's say the reason du jour. for divorces these days.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you said four, four primary ones is infidelity, money, because you read
Dennis Vetrano: Addiction and abuse. I mean, , [00:05:00] alcoholism and substance abuse and also, , addictions of other types and and and certainly , domestic violence is, is always a big one and that, and there, there are mental health issues that underlie that as well.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. And then now this new, new asterisk added fifth one, basically a shifting of roles. So the idea that women are working more and continuing to do the household work and that's frustrating for them. I
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah. And I think it's, , again, it's not uncommon to have, , women paying most of the bills, making, being the primary wage earner, , being the CEO, , being the entrepreneur running a company and, you know, then still, okay, it's kids, it's house, it's laundry, it's groceries, it's all of those things as well.
, there needs to, and again, I, , I want to really focus on, the big P word there, right? Partnership. There needs to be a partnership in relationships. And I think when there's not, , it can be a leading cause for a fracture of a relationship. And again, from the lady's perspective, this is what I'm [00:06:00] seeing.
Kirsten Trammell: yeah, yeah. And I'm so curious, I know you mentioned affairs, but how would you say that sex plays a role in divorce? Is that something that is a big part of that?
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, if you've looked at my background, I do a whole lot of pieces on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook about relationships. And a lot of the big complaints from the guys is like, Hey, you know, there's no physical aspect of a relationship.
We haven't had sex in, , X amount of months or X amount of years or what have you. And I feel like you know, to cult, look, look, sex is an important part in my opinion, or, or let's, let's back out of that and say, Intimacy is an important part of a long lasting, meaningful, fulfilling relationship.
But you need to cultivate that. That's not I come in the door at night and I want to have sex right now. That's not the way that works. And I think guys, , making the investment in that intimacy on the other end, [00:07:00] if you make that investment, you're going to find you're going to get the return, the reciprocation of that intimacy.
And I'm not necessarily talking about sex per se, although it's a piece of the collective intimacy. It's about connection. So yeah, it's, it plays a big role and, , think of it like this, , a lady comes home and says, , Hey, I'm paying all the bills. I'm doing all the work.
I'm taking care of the kids. I'm doing laundry there. There's no mental emotional connection. I'm not being listened to. I'm not being. being hurt. I'm not being supported. I'm not being helped. Why in the hell would I want to have sex with you? I mean, in a way, , you look at that and you say, Hmm, that makes logical sense.
I don't feel inspired. I don't feel, , hurt. I don't feel motivated. What, what's going to, what's going to be that attraction there. For the guys like, Hey, I'm not getting laid or whatever. , you got to make the investment. You got it. You got to hit the buy and you got to cultivate that relationship.
You have to facilitate that intimacy. And I don't want to say you have to facilitate the sex because it's more than that. It's a [00:08:00] comprehensive approach that leads to the physicality.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. Is, is that what you would say leads to the affairs happening from your experience or?
Dennis Vetrano: I think, I don't think affairs happen in a bubble. I think affairs are in large part, not always, but on average, Affairs are not the cause, they're the effect. So meaning the relationship fractures which leads to the affair. , not getting what you need at home, not and it's not you know, if I'm getting, not getting laid at home, I'm just going to go out and have sex with whomever else.
It's not really that. It's, you don't have that connection. The relationship is failing and that's on multi, and it's a multifaceted thing. It's more than that, but yeah, yeah, I think there are problems with the relationship that cause it to fail. And then that leads to the infidelity on average from what I'm seeing.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. This is and I've recently had some conversations with people about affairs and [00:09:00] infidelity and how in divorce that, that doesn't really play a role in who gets what or how things are laid out, which I find, I don't know, I'm just curious of what your take is on that. If it should be, if it shouldn't be.
Dennis Vetrano: And here's the funny part. I mean, remember, I've been doing this 25 years, so I've seen a whole lot. So when I started out, yeah, you know, fault, which is what we call that. So in divorce cases, yeah, but what, you know, there's multiple different aspects of a divorce case. The, the first aspect is, Do you have grounds, a basis to dissolve the marital relationship?
Now in New York State, at least, I'm a New York State divorce lawyer, in New York State, you need to prove grounds, okay? You used to have to prove infidelity or abandonment or cruel and inhumane treatment. Now we're a no fault state, we have a no fault ground. So you don't need to prove anything if you want to get divorced, and it used to be that the ground, the fault, would impact the division of the assets, who paid who, what, those sorts of things, for many, many years in New [00:10:00] York State.
That has not been the case. So essentially, the reason for the divorce, the fault, if you will, for the divorce, has nothing to do with the division of the assets, how much money you pay, the split, etc. Can it impact custody and visitation? Yeah, maybe, if it has anything to do with the best interest of the kids.
Or, if there's domestic violence present, it can certainly impact the division of assets, because that's a specific factor that's considered in dividing assets. But generally speaking, if you've had an affair, that's not going to give the other person a leg up on how the assets are divided.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, yeah, interesting. Yeah, and I could see how if you have to show proof that could turn into a really messy hunt.
Dennis Vetrano: And the funny part is we used to, hire private investigators to, you know, surreptitiously, take photos of the affair and call them as witnesses. I mean, let's put it this way. When I started out handling divorce litigation cases, you had to prove grounds and you were entitled [00:11:00] to a jury trial on that.
So think, it's not just the judge. So think about it. Theoretically, you could have asked for a jury trial on that and had to try that aspect of the case before a jury. Interesting.
Kirsten Trammell: wild. The thing that you could have a jury for it, yeah. And I just think about how expensive that must become.
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, I can remember a case I had many, many years ago now where the litigant that I had, you know, She had a basis to, , refuse the divorce. She said, look, you don't have grounds for the divorce. You can't prove grounds. So I'm going to refuse the divorce unless and until I get a fair settlement with the Division of the Assets.
But ultimately, what happened is she acquiesced in the case and she said, look, Dennis, I, I Can't continue to go through this. It's so heartbreaking. It's so stressful. It's so costly. I just want to get it over with. And I think, , that's the dynamic with the divorce cases and, and clients need to find a balance in between insisting on what's fair.[00:12:00]
But just trying to get out of it so they can, , get their sanity back. I mean, , divorce in my mind for clients is a turn of a page in your life, , and it's starting anew. You know, and looking, looking forward, hopefully, to a brighter future.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to look at it instead of this. I mean, horrible ending. It's a new beginning. Yeah.
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, yeah, you know, glass half full. I mean, I'm, I'm ever the optimist, and I feel , things do happen in life for a reason. I'm a firm believer of that. And when you reach that point, and for many people, they don't really want the divorce. They didn't seek it out to begin with. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it turns out to be, forgive the expression, a blessing for them because they realize at that point, all of the flaws, all of the failings of the fact of the fractured relationship and all of the things they were missing out on in life because of that relationship and how much more they can demand of themselves and their life and, and and a partner and what, what they can expect [00:13:00] from life.
You know, you're supposed to be happy in life. That's the point. Cause it's very short. So you look at it as a fresh start to, to, you know, that's
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Move forward. Oh, and this is something that kind of blows my mind is thinking about how marriage is, is this legal contract? Of course, there's marriage from the kind of religious, spiritual, like ceremonial piece of it. But then, if you're legally getting married, this is this like legal binding document that people are signing all the time.
Yeah. And I feel like we don't really actually know anything about what it really means to be legally married.
Dennis Vetrano: true. That's true. And , it's so funny when you're going through the divorce process, one of the biggest things I suggest to clients is right at the outset, , try to distinguish the. emotional aspect, the feelings, the mental and emotional from the contract, these sort of stuff, meaning the financial, the houses, the money, what changes hands, those sorts of things.
Because they [00:14:00] are two separate and distinct things. And I think one of the reasons why divorces can be, , costly and so aggravating and so time consuming is because it's the one area of law above all others where you have such a They're so intertwined between the law and the emotion.
And if you can carve out the emotion out of the law and just say, Hey, the money, the division of assets, that's a math problem. My emotions on how I deal with the baggage left over from the relationship. The, the regret that I feel, the , the shame that I feel. And again, these are a lot of the emotions that people feel going through that process.
Carve those things out and deal with those outside the lawyer's office and outside of the courthouse. And , really just try to focus on, with the divorce, the legal aspects. And again, essentially what it is, is a math problem. And yes, it is a contract. , it's funny with the relationships, what I'm trying to do with people these days, more so than any other.
Is [00:15:00] to advise clients like, look, as you go into the relationship or just people in general, look, if you're not married or you're single, you're in college, you're dating, you're engaged, , there's some things you can do to put yourself in a, , not that you're going to guarantee you'll never get divorced, but there are things you can do to increase your odds, right?
Or decrease your odds rather of getting divorced. , look, you're going to choose well. Right? You're going to choose the person that you're going to marry well. And that's begins with knowing yourself. So get to know yourself really well before you can possibly make a decision on who you want to be with.
And then when you choose the right, who you think is the right person, choose it with your head. , know what's this person's financial background? What do they do to make money? Am I gonna jibe with their view of the world? , there are people who wanna conquer the world.
And there are people who just wanna be. , and sometimes those two personality types, if they're two different personality types, just don't really have a future moving forward. So I [00:16:00] think, what you can learn from this is just, , try to, as you're choosing relationships, know yourself.
Choose well, and then, , get all that financial background and such as you can, and, and, , likely do a prenup, which is always a good idea.
Kirsten Trammell: Ah, Prina. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. And it's, yeah, I mean, in order to be able to choose someone, I feel like so often we get caught up in the emotion of the experience of the relationship that we don't pause to have conversations about money, have conversations about, All of these other really important parts of our life because we feel a certain way about somebody.
Dennis Vetrano: Right. And you have that, because everybody wants the fairy tale, right? And they're , overwhelmed with this feeling of love and attraction, and they're almost, , forgive the expression, blinded. But I think, it's funny My mother in law told my wife something before, , we met and we got together.
And she said, choose with your head first. And I think that's a really good piece of advice, and I don't think we do that enough. [00:17:00] Does that mean you're gonna, , just look at on paper this person's an accountant and they make XYZ dollars a year and they, , and they don't have any credit card debt?
And that's the person I'm gonna marry? No. No. But you narrow the field, right? You narrow the field into somebody you know on paper you would click with. And then you try to find that sort of person that, you get that spark. And I think, , people are always like, oh, this is my last chance.
I'm only, there's only one soulmate in the world. No. No, be patient, , be engaged in the process. It's one of the most important, if not, it's the most important relationship you'll have theoretically in your entire life. So take the time to be engaged and, and make sure, hey, this is the right person on paper.
And this is a person that I feel like, hey, , the relationship is easy. I want to spend time with them. I feel that spark and can you have it all? Yes, you absolutely can have it all. You just need to be patient. And wait for that right [00:18:00] person. And I think we're just so anxious to get into relationships and start our, start our, , life together and white picket fence and all those things.
And I think if we'd be a little bit more patient, we could decrease the odds of Of you being in my office. Put it that way.
Kirsten Trammell: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that that patience piece, and I think too, sometimes people just from my observation is that they get caught up in, in this timeline of where they're supposed to be in life and oh, at this point I should be, oh, and because I'm in a relationship with this person and this is the time in my life when I should be getting married, therefore we should get married.
That isn't always the best choice, probably.
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, and I think, where does that come from? That's societal, right? That's driven by religion. That's driven by the way you were raised. That's driven by your parents, your friends, your family. Oh, you know, you're 25, right? , or your group of friends that are all married. You're 25, it's about time you get married, right?
And then once you get married, oh, you're gonna have kids. You're gonna have kids right away. [00:19:00] Hey, slow down. You are on your own timetable. You're not on anyone else's timetable but your own. Now, obviously, there, , women say , you have to have kids by Yeah, I get that.
There's a biological clock thing there. I totally get that. But there are things you can do to prepare for that, number one. And number two, , yes, it's there. But, you know, don't make Don't let that make you feel rushed to make a lifelong commitment that, to someone who could be a mistake. If you see those red flags, and, and you're seeing them, they're there for a reason.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Okay, you mentioned prenuptials. Let's talk about those. Should people have them or not?
Dennis Vetrano: I think so, and , it's funny, when I do the prenup conversations, and I've done some videos on them, I want to shift the way we look at these. Okay, so if you were researching a car you were going to buy, or you were looking at a house or what have you, [00:20:00] you'd want to know everything you could, right?
You'd want to get an inspection, you'd want to know, , you'd want to get an insurance policy, you'd want to say, hey, I've got to read all the reviews, I've got to know all the background, what's the history? And yet we go into marriages, you have no idea sometimes what their sources of income are, what's their background, what's their credit rating, how much credit card debt do they have, do they have any bankruptcies, do they have any foreclosures, what assets do they own. know any of those things. A lot of the relationships we get married, we have no clue. And even more than that, in the event the worst would happen, What do you anticipate you can expect from each other? And I think that will speak volumes. about the person that you're with. For example, when my wife and I got together, she owned assets before we got together.
Now, we don't have a prenup as an asterisk, which is probably not the best idea, , but for, for [00:21:00] me if we ever got divorced, I wouldn't want to take anything from her that was hers, that she worked hard for and she earned. And I think, Through the process of exchanging information about each other, financial information, that's going to be full disclosure, right?
And isn't that what you want at the beginning of, of a marriage? Don't you want to know everything about each other, including all of your financial history and background? And number two, don't you want to know What they would expect from you if the worst were to happen because a lot of times It'll tell you vol it'll speak volumes about another person as to what you can expect from them If the worst were to happen if the worst case scenario would have happened, how do they react?
How do they behave? What do they say they're gonna do? Cause that'll tell you a lot about a person. You know, that, that sort of situation where, look, if they're gonna, you see somebody in another social circumstance, and somebody does something to them, and then they need to get revenge against them, or they're really aggressive, or they're really violent, or they're [00:22:00] holding all this animosity towards that other person, that tells you a little bit about them.
Right? And it's important to know that before you get married. So I think shifting the focus on the prenups, it's about transparency. That's what it's about. And knowing what you can expect from each other.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, I, I've never thought about it like that because I think so much we think Oh, if you're sending a pre map, that means that you think this isn't going to work. And so people just jump to that emotional thought process of Oh, why would we do that? We're going to be together forever. But yeah, it makes sense.
Like now you can understand how would they show up. in the worst. And so now you can go into, into your marriage, really knowing them. Yeah.
Dennis Vetrano: And, you know, and knowing more about the background, for sure.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, this is like my personal take, but I feel like if something belonged to someone, like before we were ever together, like that's theirs. In my eyes, I wouldn't be like, Oh, that's [00:23:00] mine now because I'm with that. To me, that seems like that would be appropriate. To have that mindset.
Have you seen any really wild or bizarre prenuptials that have come through? I recently was reading something, and they were saying that someone signed a prenuptial, where it was like, for every 10 pounds a woman gained she would get 10, 000 less from alimony money or something, if they got divorced.
Just strange things that people put in prenuptials. I'm curious.
Dennis Vetrano: But I've heard a lot of them. Even those situations where there's like an infidelity clause. Hey, if you cheat on me, you get nothing sort of thing. And, , there, there's varying degrees.
Um, you know, I think generally speaking, a prenup that's, that's well drafted and has relatively standard terms in it is pretty enforceable. But once you start putting wacky things in there, you always have to question how enforceable those things are going to be at the end of the day. And it is a contract, but , again, ultimately it is up to the judge to uphold that or not when, in the [00:24:00] event of a divorce.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, yeah. And then, okay, so you are, I, I appreciate this. So advocating for prenuptials for anyone that's not married yet. So let me think about, could you, can you get a prenuptial after you've been married or create an addendum or something like that?
Dennis Vetrano: You can, you can do what we call a post nup, which is essentially the same thing. I mean, pre nup is pre nuptials, post nup is post nuptials , I usually suggest the post nups when you're trying to restore the marital relationship. So if you feel like your marriage is failing, but you're working at it, think of it like this.
When people are going through the divorce process, , I heard a quote years ago from a mental health professional that said, when people are going through the divorce process, they're three degrees away from their normal baseline personality. So anytime you're going through the process, so stressful, you're almost just not thinking like yourself.
So that's not the point in time where you want to try to [00:25:00] negotiate rationally between the two parties, if you can avoid it. So what I try to do is if the two parties are saying, Hey, We might be headed up, headed towards divorce, but the reality is we're trying to work through marriage counseling in the meanwhile and say, Hey, okay, now is the time that you're both, you know, still treating each other relatively well and trying to work towards a relationship.
Now's the point at which, similar to a pre nup, you'd want to do a post nup and say, Hey, Let's jump in with both feet to this marriage counseling. Let's try to make this marriage work. But if it doesn't, we don't want to wait till we're both at loggerheads, you know, kind of, forgive the expression, kind of out for blood, to start trying to negotiate a fair agreement between the two of us.
We want to do it now. While we're still have some level of connection to each other so that look, if it does fail, then you sail through the divorce process seamlessly and you're not like, tens of thousands of fifties, hundred thousand dollars for divorce cases. Cause I've seen those cases. And in fact, you know, I think the highest, [00:26:00] Divorce, litigation, legal fees, I saw was over a million dollars.
And again, we've handled everything from, you know, multi multi million dollar construction company divorces to the, , basic been married six months and uncontested and we just wrap the papers and submit. , and everything in between.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, wow. And this is a question that just came up. Can someone refuse to sign these papers? Can someone refuse to sign a divorce document? I mean, is that a, is that an option?
Dennis Vetrano: They can, but think of it like this. In New York State, if you have no fault divorce, and a lot of other states do, they can't stand in the way of the ultimate divorce. So we have a few pending right now where that's the case. The other side just doesn't want the divorce. And, and you know what? In a way, those are really heartbreaking.
Because I, I've had those clients that say, Hey Dennis, I, I've done nothing as a husband or a wife to cause this person to want to divorce me. But, , so I don't want to be divorced, I don't want to be in your office, I don't want to be paying a retainer fee, I don't want to go [00:27:00] before the judge, I don't want to sell my house, I don't want any of these things.
And in those cases, they're heartbreaking, but you have to tell them like, look, , in New York State with no fault divorce, you can't refuse the divorce, whether you want it or not, ultimately it's going to happen, whether it needs to be legated or not. And in those cases, if they're straightforward, I just say, look, , this is an important thing.
you to just say, Hey, if this person doesn't want to be with you, you need to accept it for what it is. And again, now back to my glass half full, there's no future in trying to force a relationship in somebody that doesn't want to be with you. And at the end of the day, what those people usually find There's a lot of things they weren't getting out of the relationship as well.
And that the relationship was fractured and they really weren't happy. And it was the best thing that ever happened to them at the end of the day. , and I think a lot of times that's connected with self worth. I think people through the divorce process, when they get there, a lot of times they they've almost lost their, their value, they've [00:28:00] almost lost their self worth, they've lost their sense of self.
You know, and they don't realize how, how great they are and how valuable they are and how they deserve to be happy. And especially if you're on the other end of somebody saying they want to be divorced from you. But that's why I'm here to say, Hey, this, let's, let's start over. Believe me, there's a future on the horizon.
That's better than you thought it was.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, man, Dennis, you must be part lawyer, part therapist in the process, helping people. It's, it's really challenging and sad. And also, yeah, there's a silver lining in that, that with every divorce is a new beginning and yeah. Okay. So other, other pieces of relationships. I had jotted down like a few things that, that come to my mind when I think about divorces or having conversations about, but what people think leads to divorce and gold diggers was one of them.
And I'm curious about where that falls for you. If that's something you see a lot in your office or, I [00:29:00] mean, is that even, yeah.
Dennis Vetrano: We see some of it, but but not as frequently. I think what we're seeing, I think, , in those sorts of circumstances, yeah, they want to be divorced, but those, on average, those relationships that we see are not the ones where you've been married to the proverbial gold digger for 25 years. So remember, if you've been married six years, you've been married, excuse me, six months, a year, five years.
, durations of, of spousal support is short. A lot of times the judges are loathe to award that much spousal support over a long period of time. So I think, , when you get into those city centers , big time, Manhattan, big time, LA, , you're going to find probably a lot more of that.
But again, what you'll also find with those, it's funny. I was just reading a just listening to a book on tape about the biography of Elon Musk. So it's talking about hey, when you get to these levels, , you're doing [00:30:00] prenups. , this isn't a situation where it's , oh, yeah, I'm a multi multi billionaire, and I'm gonna marry somebody who's 30 years younger than me.
And, , it's on a whim, we got married, and we decided to get married two weeks after we met. And oh, by the way, no prenup. No, that's, , in those sorts of situations, 99 plus percent of the time they have prenups.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I guess in thinking about sounds like geographically. So whether wherever we're located, that there's going to be different laws that kind of drive the divorce process. So is there do you recommend people kind of, gain an understanding of within their state or wherever they're living, like, how to manage that?
Oh,
Dennis Vetrano: It would make sense if you have an ability to file for divorce in different states, , the laws will be different. So I'll give you a perfect example. Filing in one state versus the next could be the difference between child support ending at 18 or child support ending at 21. , so , that's one example.
I know that it varies generally from state to state. Again, I'm a, [00:31:00] I'm a New York State divorce and familial litigation attorney. It also does vary slightly from jurisdiction to say venue. Not jurisdiction. Jurisdiction is state to state. Venue is county to county. The venue does vary in terms of the sections of the state.
Downstate New York might rule very differently on something than, say, if you were in Buffalo or you were in Saratoga or something like that. Yeah, the laws do vary slightly from venue to venue, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It would make sense if you have an opportunity to file for divorce in different states that you assess.
What the different rules are, what the different laws are, and you can certainly contact, each state and, and consult with a divorce lawyer in each jurisdiction.
Kirsten Trammell: yeah, yeah. Okay. And when it comes to filing for divorce, who in the relationship is usually the person who files for divorce?
Dennis Vetrano: In our heterosexual relationships, generally it's the woman, it's the wife that files, and I, and I think, in fact, to the tune of almost 70%. I think it's roughly about mid 60 percent that That [00:32:00] the wife files for a divorce more frequently than the man does than the men do. And and the funny part about that is a lot of the feedback I get from the guys, and again, I get a lot of let's say forgive the expression.
I get a lot of hate from the guys because they think like what I'm trying to do is hey, you're doing the wrong thing, like you're a jerk. It's. It couldn't be further from the truth because the reason why I'm giving the advice I'm giving is because I've seen those guys that come into my office and they're absolutely beside myself.
My kids are being taken away, I have to move out of the house, she's got a new boyfriend, I have those stories over and over and over again and I have so many guys that have no support. They have no close friends, they have, you know, estranged family, their only family was their wife and their kids, and in the divorce, they're being, you know, fractured of that, right, divest, and I forgive the expression, divested of that, right, and they're like, oh my, like, how did this happen, I was so blindsided, and what I'm trying to do is, [00:33:00] I'm seeing all the feedback from the ladies, I'm hearing it in the office, And I'm seeing it as responses to my videos.
And I know, based on all of that, that I've got it right. I know why the ladies are frustrated. I know what's causing the fractured relationship. And I'm saying, guys, look, these, these things, you gotta put the effort in. You gotta you gotta be invested in it. You gotta listen. You gotta be engaged.
You gotta be a true partner. You gotta share responsibilities. All these things that the ladies are just crying out for their husbands to do. That they don't, and then, you know, like I said, guys think it's just an overnight decision. Ladies, from the feedback that I've gotten, and statistically is, it takes them months, years to arrive at that final decision that they want to be divorced from their husband.
And then they come in to the tune of almost 70 percent and want to file for divorce. So I'm saying like, guys, here are the things I'm seeing. You're just trying to blame the guys, or you're just trying to come down. No. I'm trying to help you, trying to give, [00:34:00] share with you the information that I have.
So you can call, you can say I'm full of it. I don't know what I'm talking about, but then, you know, this is what I'm seeing.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I'm like, everybody listen. No, but really, I, yeah, it's, it's hard to to, cause I was doing some research, you know, about all of this and diving into some pretty wild stats and, and it was actually like, this was kind of sad for me was when reading that most women are the ones that file for the divorce, but when it comes to remarry, like the more women are less likely to get remarried.
in the future which is something for us ladies to think about. But yeah,
Dennis Vetrano: that's it's an interesting dynamic. It's funny because I had a consultation the other day, similar things. Like, why would I want, why, why do I want another child? I know, guys, that's gonna hit you hard to hear that, but that's, you know, they're coming into, like, why do I want to get, why do I want another child?
What's, what's, what's in it for me? [00:35:00] If I have to do, if I have to pay all the bills and I have to take care of everything and I'm not getting all the mental and emotional support that I need, what am I getting?
Kirsten Trammell: it's, it's hard to because then now I just think about it like the dynamic of if both people are working in a heterosexual relationship, the woman's working, the man's working and the woman's doing the household. So now it's like asking both people in a relationship to do everything and And everything at the same time, which is so demanding and creates a really challenging life.
Dennis Vetrano: It is. It's hard. If you want to live the dream, let's say, you want to have a beautiful house, you want to take vacations, you want to have nice cars, you, you, you, you want to, you know, have a few kids, you want them to go to the best schools, you want to, if you want all of those things, it does take a lot of time and work and commitment.
And, and it's, and yes, it is [00:36:00] multiple full time jobs, you know, and it's funny because I think let's so I'm a Gen Xer, right? I'm 53. Okay. So You think about these sorts of circumstances and you say, okay, so I was raised in a household where my dad works 70 hours a week and he was away from the household a lot, trying to pay all the bills.
My mom worked part time and did most of the provided most of the care for me. So my dad really didn't do any laundry. He didn't do any cooking. He didn't do really any cleaning. My mother did all of those things. So I think you have guys being raised in those situations and then they get married. And, okay, I'm doing like my dad did, and then I'm working hard, and I'm trying to pay bills, and I'm working the whole time, and then when I come home, I'm just gonna hang out.
That's it. That's my day. But then now you have the ladies saying, okay, so I'm doing the primary care for the kids, and the laundry, and all those things. But I'm working as much as you are now. [00:37:00] I'm paying as much or more of the bills than you are. And yes, it's a more challenging situation than what we grew up in.
Life is much more complex than it was 30 years ago. There are so many more things you have to worry about, and bills are more expensive, and houses are more expensive, and so are groceries. And yes, it takes two primary wage earners. And by the way, it also takes two people, probably, forgive the expression, probably a village.
To raise your kids too. now it's all of it. And yes, it's very demanding and you're like, Oh my God. At the end of the day. You know, even for me, I'm doing soccer practice and then I'm doing some groceries and then I'm helping with prepare the meals and then we're doing stuff around the house, but we're doing it together think about what you're also getting there now.
Whereas we used to be, you know, the conventional wisdom is we're on an island. Mom's over here taking care of the kids, doing all this, doing her own thing. Dad's over here working, doing his own thing, two islands. But if you're sharing those things to. Together, now what are you doing? Now you've got all of [00:38:00] these other levels to connect with each other on, and I know Ah, bullshit.
No, it's not. If you're connecting on how hard it is to raise kids and do laundry and work a job and that's your connection a team. That's the partnership there and that's what leads to the bonding and the intimacy and everything else that gets you the, you know, in my opinion you know, the perfect world of a relationship as much as it can be.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that and, and creating that perspective change of, of yeah, when you do things together, that's how you bond with each other and maybe making dinner is something that you can bond over together or maybe sharing, picking up the kids from their sports is something you can bond, whatever.
Like those are, additional touch points of engagement with each other that I'm sure both of you want in a way. And, and yeah, I, one piece that I do want to ask about is, is this element of kids. And it's interesting, you mentioned, the woman come in to file the divorce and then [00:39:00] ultimately these men are being pulled away from their families who were really their only primary, in most cases family.
source of relationship and and now they're losing their kids along with their marriage and along with really like their probably primary social Space or like that leaves them in a pretty bleak environment
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, it does, and the funny part about that is, it's not funny, it's actually sad, is that guys on average, at least in my experience, are much less likely to ask for help. Much less likely to reach out and talk to a counselor, or talk to a priest, or talk to a pastor, or talk to a friend, or have anybody that they can commiserate with, or just listen to them when they're going through the process, or even anything in general.
, and I think again, you're going to see a lot of the factors that, that show through in relationships and divorce in general, in large part, , are the way we were [00:40:00] raised to be, the societal factors that, the guy's the strong guy. I don't need help from anybody. I can figure everything out.
I've got it all under control. And meanwhile, under that shell. There is somebody that's like struggling, struggling. So without now, now you don't have your wife or your family around. Now you're alone trying to figure it out. And , I'm just telling the guys like, Look, please, please try to have somebody to try to keep a hold of your sanity through the process.
And the way you do that is, is admit you need help. Admit you're, as much as you want to be, you're not Superman all the time, you know?
Kirsten Trammell: yeah, yeah. It sounds like most men are, they have the same experience when they're going through that divorce process and so finding each other and in your own way, , maybe going to a meetup for divorce men, I don't know, but something , and I would be curious. So yeah. Absolutely. I was reading that 86 percent of people that get divorced remarry within five years.[00:41:00]
And why do you think that, that is? Like, why do you think people, after they go through this process, this heartbreak, this legal dynamic that's expensive, it's time consuming, it's emotional, and then they choose to get married again?
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, and it's funny because Most of the feedback that I see on social media is, I'm never getting married again, I'm never gonna get married again. And then, , ultimately they do. And I think it's that people do not want to be alone. And you have a lot of people say what's the upside?
There's, there's no reason to get married. Why wouldn't I get married? And yet people divorce and they get remarried. The reality is they, they want that connection. They want that commitment. They want that, you know, they want that white picket fence sort of life. , there, there's a comfort there.
There's a support there. , and I think, , There's not a problem with that. I think the divorce process, I've always said the divorce process is your life under a microscope and that allows you to look at yourself and should look at yourself. What did I do? Who am [00:42:00] I? How did I get here?
What level of responsibility do I bear for the failed relationship? You know, what, how, how can I improve myself? And in addition, analyze, Moving forward, especially through the process, analyzing, , what do I need out of life to make me happy If I'm going to be with another person, what qualities do they need to possess , and what do I need from another person to make me happy?
And even just on a finances level, , 'cause finances do contribute. , we talk about. I think we're focusing a lot on internal factors, right? But there are external factors that contribute to divorces. , the pressures from your job, the pressures of raising kids, the pressures of the finances and paying bills.
So I think the finances is a big piece too. And take a look at your financial health as well. Do you have too much credit card debt? Do you live beyond your means? Are you maximizing your earning potential? Are you even in a profession that [00:43:00] you're happy with? You know, if you're coming home from a job, miserable every day.
You know, that doesn't bode well for your relationship either. And I think if you look at relationships that go through bumps in the roads, let's say bumpy relationships, there's a lot of external factors taking place at that time. It's not just the internal ones. It's just, you need to have that support enough.
At home to help you through those external factors. But if you're through the divorce process, reevaluating yourself, reevaluating relationships and what you need out of them, reevaluating your finances, taking a look at every aspect of your life, presumably you're gaining some answers and some insights as to how you can make that 86 percent remarriage.
Decrease your 70 percent second marriage divorce rate,
Kirsten Trammell: Yes. Yeah.
Dennis Vetrano: back in a relationship and you get a lot of rebound relationships. Take the time to know yourself. [00:44:00] Know what you want out of another person. Even just serially date for a period of time and just see what sort of personalities you click with.
And then, Then and only then be ready to make that make that leap again. And I'm not and I'm not one that opposes the second marriages. I just want you to learn and grow and heal from the divorce process first. And look at it like, hey, I'm going to be a better me. And then I'm going to find the better, not say better, but but a spouse that I can really click with.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Dennis, I'm sure there's so much more we could get into here forever and ever within the tunnel of divorce in relationships, but where can everybody find you if they want to learn more? Maybe my goal is that they don't need to work with you, but I know you have so much really powerful information online.
So please, if you could share where people can find you
Dennis Vetrano: here, I'm going to do this for you. I'm going to give you the handles, but I'm going to give you a roadmap. Here's what I want you to do if you're [00:45:00] contemplating divorce at DRV Law. For the tiktok videos at DRV law for the Instagram. You can also find me on Facebook. If you have any questions about the specific law, DRV channel law.
com. That's the website and you can also schedule a consultation there. But I want you to try to look at some videos and gain some information about the process. If you're contemplating, it'll give you some calm, right? And even if you're in a situation where you're thinking about getting engaged, or you want to just like, Hey, I want to make sure I choose well.
Take a look at all that free information. And if you need us, , anywhere in our area, anywhere, , near downstate New York you can always schedule a consultation. And, and I think, , that's the first step to gain information about the divorce process. Do a consultation, whether it's with me or with another divorce lawyer.
Do it early on, because what's the worst that could happen? You're just gaining information. Gather your information, and then, , I think with information for people comes calm. And that's what I want for you in the process.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing and for coming on and, and it's really [00:46:00] cool that you have come from this place of probably seeing some of the darkest parts of people in relationship and still having such an optimistic lens, even on divorce in and of itself. So I appreciate you sharing your experiences with everybody today.
Dennis Vetrano: Yeah, it was great having, being on. Thanks so much.
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