Your Dating Life Will Get Better The Moment You Watch To This
Are you tired of dating? Dreading planning another date, or getting back onto the dating app merry go round downloading and deleting the apps?
This week, Kirsten talks with Talia Koren about how to have FUN with dating again.
Whether you are single and sick of the dating apps or are searching for some hope in your dating options, this episode is for you. And if you are in a committed relationship, I’m sure you have some single friends who need to hear this, or need your support while they are out there dating…listen for them.
Talia and Kirsten cover all the potential scenarios of dating…think catfishing, girls who don’t want to contribute anything in dating or what to do when you hate her friends. This episode is fun, and a chance to hop into the mind of two young women in the dating world.
Key Topics:
00:08 The Landscape of Dating in 2024
01:15 The Cycle of Deleting and Re-downloading Dating Apps
02:14 Expanding Your Dating Pool: Beyond the Top 10%
03:40 The Slow Burn of Attraction: Giving It Time
06:31 Intentional Dating: Focusing on What You Want
12:26 The Reality of Dating: Moving Beyond Fantasies
15:47 Effective Communication and Misconceptions in Dating
18:56 Asking Deep Questions: A Strategy for Meaningful Connections
21:42 Embrace Your Passions: Why It's Attractive
22:15 Making Dating Fun Again: Strategies and Insights
25:21 Navigating Real-Life Connections: Tips and Challenges
28:39 Scenario Discussions: From Effort Imbalance to Meeting Friends
38:29 Vulnerability and Openness in Dating
Talia Koren
The world of dating is constantly evolving, and as we look ahead to 2024, it's clear that the landscape will be vastly different from what we're used to today. As a dating coach and host of The Naked Connection podcast, I've made it my mission to stay ahead of the curve and provide my audience with the most up-to-date insights and strategies for navigating the ever-changing dating scene.
This blog post summarizes the main points of my latest podcast episode. If you'd like, you can listen to it at https://www.thenakedconnection.com/podcast-blog.
One of the most significant challenges facing single men in 2024 will be the burnout caused by endless swiping and the reliance on dating apps. While these platforms have become a staple in modern dating, the constant cycle of matching, chatting, and disappointing dates can take a toll on one's motivation and mental well-being. However, as my guest expert Talia Koren explains, deleting the apps is not the answer. Instead, she encourages men to view dating apps as a supplement to real-life connections and to actively pursue their interests and hobbies, where they may organically meet potential partners.
Another critical aspect of dating in 2024 will be the desire for more meaningful connections. As Talia highlights, people are craving in-person experiences and deeper bonds beyond the surface-level interactions often fostered by dating apps. To meet this need, she recommends focusing on compatibility and shared values from the outset, rather than solely relying on physical attraction or superficial traits.
One of the most valuable pieces of advice Talia offers is the importance of being intentional in your dating approach. This means doing the inner work to identify what you truly want in a partner and leading with those qualities, rather than trying to fit someone into a mold they don't belong in. By being clear about your non-negotiables and having open conversations about expectations, you increase your chances of finding a genuinely compatible partner.
Moreover, Talia emphasizes the need for vulnerability and emotional intelligence in dating. Contrary to the notion that vulnerability is a weakness, she argues that showing your authentic self and being open to sharing your thoughts and feelings is crucial for building trust and fostering deeper connections.
Finally, Talia encourages men to make dating fun again by embracing dynamic dates, pursuing their passions, and approaching potential partners with curiosity and an open mind. Rather than focusing solely on physical attraction, she suggests giving people a chance and allowing attraction to develop over time through meaningful interactions and shared experiences.
As we look ahead to 2024, it's clear that the dating landscape will present unique challenges and opportunities. By embracing Talia's expert insights and practical tips, men can navigate this evolving scene with confidence, intention, and a greater chance of finding lasting love and fulfillment.
Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] Did you know that it takes on average 200 swipes for a guy to get one. Single coffee date. So I get it. You're exhausted. You're sick of dating apps. You're done with girls blowing you off. You're done with wasting your time but you don't know what else to do, because this is how people date.
Now this is the world of dating. Well, In this episode, we are going to uncover the best way to ask a girl out. How to make dating fun again. Yes. And how to make sure that you are dating intentionally, because it's time to start dating focused on what you want. Not being focused on wondering if you are what she wants.
Welcome back to the naked connection.
This is the show that supports the driven men to reach sexual mastery and build deep connections. What's that my guys it's Kiersten your soon to be licensed sex therapist and an order to have this conversation about [00:01:00] dating today. I invited. Taliah Corrine onto the show. Talia speaks to hundreds of women every single day about dating.
And she is here to reveal exactly what women want from you and dating. And in relationships and really how you can start getting what you want. When it comes to dating. So you guys let's get some.
Kirsten Trammell: [00:02:00] Talia, Karen, welcome to the Naked Connection. We are so excited to have you here today.
Talia Koren: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.
Kirsten Trammell: I want to get right into it and hear from your experience in the dating world. What is the landscape of dating like right now? It's 2024. How's it looking?
Talia Koren: It's a little rough out there. I'm not going to lie. I talked to people, hundreds of people every week about this. So from what I'm hearing, it is really tough on the apps. People are just craving in person experiences.
They are seeking more in person experiences out. And I think, you know, People are starting to get fed up with just the repetition. And I think that's unavoidable. So I really hope I can inspire people to have more fun with it, but that's like what, how I would describe the dating landscape right now.
It's just kind of like, there's a little bit of burnout feeling, I think with the pandemic, also the post pandemic, like where we are right now, it's like in the [00:03:00] pandemic, we only had the apps and now we're kind of, the pendulum is swinging the other way. So the apps are like, ugh, no more, you know,
Kirsten Trammell: yeah. And you know, there's this concept or this experience where you go through this swing with the apps where you download the apps, you're on them, you get tired of them, you delete them, you don't know what to do. So you read, download them, you get tired of them, you delete them.
So for anyone, like for any guy that's going through that process, what would you, what
Talia Koren: stop deleting the app. Deleting the apps are not going to make them better than, you're going to come back. There's no point in, I really don't think there's any point in deleting the apps at all. Like you can get, take a break from them of course, but I feel like there's some kind of F you, I'm deleting you.
Vibe, it's like an ego thing when you're deleting it, but you know you're gonna come back. Try and make peace with the fact that sometimes it's tough out there, sometimes no one's responding to you, no one's matching with you, and that's just how it is, but deleting the app is not the [00:04:00] answer.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Talia Koren: It's just, it's not.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And you touched on something like the point about it being tough out there. I know I was looking at studies specifically with, the success for men on dating apps and it was something like only the top 10 percent of men on dating apps are getting 90 percent of women's attention. So if you're not in that top 90 percent or temper, if you're the bottom 90%, it's rough.
Talia Koren: Yes. And, I, my audience for date intentionally is mostly women. So I really push like date outside your type, please. You're ignoring instead of focusing on top 10%, why don't we broaden it to the top 17%? Hmm. You know, it's there's still amazing people in that 15, 20%. You don't need I, I've been encouraging women to just not be so nitpicky.
And it's hard because as women we do have a lot more options in that way. Like we can be nitpicky, but we are missing out on amazing people by seeing one thing and making an [00:05:00] assumption and then nope. Left. And it's no, if you're on the fence, swipe right, . You know,
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And I, and I wonder, because when you open your horizons to other possibilities beyond what you is considered like you're, we all have our own specific type, it can be hard to be attracted to that. So how can we practice or step into being more attracted to things that we typically aren't?
Talia Koren: I encourage folks to think about the idea that attraction can come later. It d doesn't have to smack you in the face. And we, we've all probably experienced an attraction that just hits us like a truck. But that's not necessarily going to lead you to the partner that's going to be a great match for you in the long term.
You need to be connecting on many other levels other than attraction. So I always want people to just not freak out or write something off too quickly if they don't feel like they want to make out with that person or they can't imagine themselves having sex with that person. It doesn't necessarily mean it's It's doomed, , give [00:06:00] it three, four dates and then make that decision because sometimes, like when you're, you have a friend or a coworker who like you didn't really notice at first and one day you see them do something, you hear them say something, you're like, oh, you're kind of cute actually, , and it's like that, you need to allow that to happen.
Kirsten Trammell: I think you can have one of two experiences. The more time you spend with someone, the more attractive they become, or the more time you spend with someone, the less attractive they become.
Talia Koren: Oh, can I tell you, I'm having this, okay, obviously I'm engaged, but I'm having this experience with my personal trainer who is a very attractive man. But as I've gotten to know him more, I've not that it matters, I'm less attracted to him, as a person, cause it's just like, oh, you're, yeah.
So it's, yes, it can go both ways.
Kirsten Trammell: Mm hmm. Yeah. I guess the lesson here is perhaps to not make the decision so abruptly.
Talia Koren: Yes. Yeah, I think the, the sweet spot is if like you don't feel any ounce of attraction by [00:07:00] date three or four, then cut them loose.
Kirsten Trammell: Mm.
Talia Koren: I talked to this this dating expert, Evan Markatz, who is, who also focuses more on talking to women, but he says you can take, if you feel you're at a six out of 10 with someone, that person could go up to a nine, but if you feel at a three out of 10 with attraction with someone that that person will probably never get up to even a six.
So it's if you start kind of in the neutral. range that can go up. But if you're below the neutral, then probably you'll never feel attracted to them.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. It gives us more of a range for who we can entertain the
Talia Koren: Yeah. And you know what it is? Like people are also really scared of wasting time. They're like, why would I go out with with someone who I'm not attracted to? And it's you, you need to let things play out, go in with curiosity, lower the stakes. It's just a one date. It's not your waste of your life.
Like you're not going to trip and fall into the wrong relationship. You know, it's, it's okay.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah, there does feel like such a time element in dating about whether it's [00:08:00] wasting time, losing out on other things because of this, or like the pressure to speed things up, or yeah, there's just so much around that that I think makes it challenging.
Talia Koren: Hmm.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. I know that you have one of I don't know, concept, but an area that you have been really well versed in is focusing on more of what an individual wants.
Like what, as if a guy is listening to this, like focusing more on what he wants as opposed to what the other person wants. Can you speak a little bit to, to that?
Talia Koren: Yes. I think this is, How you date intentionally is you have to do the inner work, whether that's with a therapist or on your own journaling, reflecting, talking with people like your peers about what is really important to you in a relationship. Like at the end, if you had to choose four or five things and you couldn't choose anything else, what are they going to be?
And that's what you lead with. Right. And. [00:09:00] When you meet someone who isn't that you're not trying to change them into the person who, who meets those needs that you have, you're going to accept them for who they are and if they're not you need, you're going to walk away. And that actually makes speeds up the process a lot more because I think a lot of us, we lead with attraction and chemistry.
We're trying to fit that person into what we're looking for, but they're just not that person. We see it all the time on reality TV. Do you watch Love Island or anything?
Kirsten Trammell: Mm mm.
Talia Koren: Okay, so what happens on these shows is like all the men and women are introduced to each other. And the first question is what's your type?
And they mean physical type. Oh, I usually go for the blondes. I usually go for whatever. And then they get together based on that. And then all the drama happens because they're choosing based on looks, not on compatibility. So they clash. And that's why we love watching it. Cause it's really entertaining, so it's we have to flip it and put the compatibility arts first. And then we end up getting to the no faster with people. It's for me when I'm really big on [00:10:00] travel. So if I went out, I went on a date with a guy and he said he never left the country and he never wanted to. Okay. That's fine. That's your thing. Not for me. I did not have a second date with him. So I'm like, I'm not going to change it.
But to someone who wants to travel. He was really attractive. He was really funny, smart. All the things. It's no, not for me.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And I think that when we're out dating, you're learning these things along the way and sometimes because it doesn't fit the narrative that you want, because maybe let's say the person's really hot and they're really, all of these things, but. You just pretend like you didn't hear that you're like, I didn't I didn't actually hear that They don't like to travel because they fit all of these boxes and then six months later You haven't listened and now you're in a situation where you they don't even have a passport and you want to go somewhere
Talia Koren: Yeah. There's the other side of it though, like you meet someone who you think is incredible and you kind of put them on a pedestal and then you try to become the person you think they want. And that's also where we lose ourselves along the way [00:11:00] because you're not being authentic.
And then, that's the premise of every rom com,
Kirsten Trammell: yeah, I was just actually having a conversation literally yesterday with a man who said he's taking a break from dating. He's kind of in that. I'm done with it phase. And he was saying, you know, women will ask me, Oh, what do you look for in a girl? And he's like, and then I'll tell them and then they'll fill that for a few months and then who they really are comes out.
Talia Koren: It's tough because we can't control other people. We can't make someone be themselves. We can only make the environment comfortable enough for someone to feel like they can be themselves. That's like really all we can do. So if a woman is showing up trying to fit a mold that she thinks this guy wants, then that's not really his thing.
you know, hopefully, like one of them will recognize and then it'll end.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine that, that, that happens as well. [00:12:00] If a guy is meets a really beautiful, smart, funny, all of the things woman and knows what she's ultimately looking for. And really it isn't him, not in a bad way, just a different way. And he tries to fill those,
Talia Koren: Yeah.
Kirsten Trammell: fill that what, how can we stop that from happening?
How can we recognize it before it starts unfolding. And say goodbye to this person. Yeah.
Talia Koren: about who you are and what you want and just being it's hard. This is not easy to do, but it's like being clear. It's okay. I want this. And this person saying. They want it too, but I'm feeling something's off about this. So I'm going to keep digging a little bit and I'm going to get more curious.
This happened to me in my dating journey too. Like I met this great guy, like literally he was, he was one person I thought was amazing partner material for me, but he had just gotten out of a 10 year relationship and I was the first person he met. And that immediately was like, you know what? If [00:13:00] I was this guy's friend, I would tell him to be.
Keep dating. And, and he kept being like, no, no, no, I really like you. I want to do this. I want to do this. And I was just kind of like, no, there is no way you're ready for this. We're what I want. Like I, I was single for a year at that point. I was ready, you know, to be in a relationship. And ultimately we got there.
It was like, yeah, he was like, you know what, actually I'm going to Burning Man. I want to be single for Burning Man. I'm like, of course you do. Who wouldn't? You know, so we ended up breaking off and he did come back a few months later being like, okay, I'm ready. But I was already with my now fiance. But that was something I recognized of you know what he's saying he wants he's acting like a boyfriend, but I know he's only acting like a boyfriend because that's all he knows, you know, and so you do have to be able to pick these things up and really focus.
I always say focus on the facts. We all do these fantasies right and projections of what we we project our fantasies on other people on the relationship where we want it to go. And then you're just completely missing the reality of it all.
Kirsten Trammell: Yes. Oh, I'm so [00:14:00] glad you just said that. I yeah, it's, we start telling ourselves a story that isn't even true. And then we put that story of what we want onto somebody and we don't even know them. Really? And I guess, and I mean, it takes a while to actually know somebody. So even in three or four dates, you really don't know who this person is.
Yeah, it's it's so interesting how our brains do that.
Talia Koren: I don't. Yeah, it's it's the hope of it all. It's the we want the beautiful love story and we can all have it. It's just we need to focus on the reality of it. And it's our lives aren't movies. They're not written. They're not produced. You know, that's,
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. I always call like rom coms and things like that. I'm like, that is, it's chick porn, basically. And it's not real.
Talia Koren: yeah,
Kirsten Trammell: And we should probably recognize that. And all of these things kind of sound to me a little bit, not these aren't red flags. It's just flags of this isn't it. Yeah.
Talia Koren: yeah, it's just kind of [00:15:00] missteps. It's just like on it's just honest mistakes we all make and we learn from them. Right. And, you know, One thing that I always encourage people to do is to keep some kind of journal or take notes about your dates and for yourself in your phone or somewhere so that you can recognize these patterns.
You can really start to see, Oh, did I sabotage this with my fantasy? And then they didn't live up to the fantasy. And then I left because I realized they were a real person with flaws. You know, it's you have to have that self awareness to have success in dating and realize what you are doing.
Cause again, we can't control what other people do, but you only can, Just focus on what you're doing, what you're bringing to the equation.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, and I would imagine after a date, let's say a guy is wanting to meet someone and have something intentional instead of wondering, does she like me being like, did I even like her?
Talia Koren: Yes,
Kirsten Trammell: how did I feel around her? What were my thoughts that were going through my head when I was with her? Looking at it as an [00:16:00] observer as instead of an experiencer
Talia Koren: yes, we, there's a lot of dating for validation happening. And I think, I think men and women, everyone feels that from it's like, Oh, you get a match, you chat, but then you never meet because they just wanted the validation of the match, right? Or you go on a first date and then you never have a second one.
Cause I just wanted the validation of the first date. And there is a lot of that. So I'm always encouraging people to be the chooser. See if you like them, don't worry. Assume they like you just blanket assumption. That's a safe assumption to make until they say otherwise, or if their actions clearly show they're not into you, you know, so focus on a few like them.
I mean, that, that was one of the biggest lessons I took in my journey that helped me the most for sure.
Kirsten Trammell: I love that. Yeah. And so just knowing that you , you've been doing this for a number of years now, you speak to women All day long, every day about dating. What would you say are, I don't know if they're like misconceptions or assumptions that men might make [00:17:00] about women that you wish that they knew? Like, Oh God, I wish that a guy just knew this.
Talia Koren: I mean, I just wish you guys knew that women are really expecting you to ask them out. I mean, it's, it's really just like what I hear over and over is We're texting and he just isn't asking for another date and it's confusing because , why would you text someone for anyone? Why would you text someone that you're not interested in seeing again?
Are you just texting what's happening? I think that's one of the biggest complaints I hear but it's okay, if you're If you as a guy you're listening to this and you're in second date zone with someone else, that you're not into, into them, stop texting them. Don't be confusing, you know?
And that this is advice for anyone. I, I always say this to women too. It's you don't have to, you don't have to wait for the guy to ask, but I think a lot of women just really want the guy to ask in straight dating. Yeah,
Kirsten Trammell: yeah, and I, I would agree with that. For any guy that's single that's listening to this, go for it.
Talia Koren: yeah. And then the other,
Kirsten Trammell: bold and I think that, cause if, if [00:18:00] she's interested in you, she will love that you did that. And if she's not interested in
Talia Koren: she'll say no. And
Kirsten Trammell: be able to tell.
Talia Koren: yeah, also just, I mean, I'm telling people just, I have anti ghost texts. It's just send a short text being like, thank you for the invite. I am not interested. I'm not feeling the connection. I wish you the best. And then most, most people respond really well to that.
And then the other thing I recently posted What's your biggest ick in dating on my feed?
Talia Koren: And I think the most common one about men was men who don't ask questions or just talk about themselves. And it's I get you're trying to impress your date. I understand where that comes from. You're trying to impress your date, no matter who you are. You want to see, show them how great you are.
You want to show them how funny you are, but it's you got to let the other person talk. It's I've heard the advice to aim to talk 30 percent of the time, and then you will probably naturally be at 50%.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, I actually recently did a podcast episode about some dating tips. And one of them is I use the analogy that we're playing tennis. We're not at the batting [00:19:00] cages, we're, we're falling back and forth. And I love that aiming for 30%, you'll probably hit 50. And I think that in a lot of ways that talkativeness can come from nerves.
It can come from the desire to, be like, Oh, I need to tell you all of the amazing things about myself because I want you to like me. And those are really good intentions. So you just need to kind of recalibrate it a little
Talia Koren: Or like fear of an awkward silence is another one that I hear a lot, which is valid. It's kind of scary. And I also want to say men have had this complaint about women too, that they don't ask questions or they just talk about themselves a lot. So it's not just guys. But I think also the questions thing is a big one that comes up a lot. And my explanation is that I This is I don't know what you think. Let me hear what you think about this. But I believe that men are not socialized to ask questions and social settings like inner world questions that women really like to answer and ask between themselves.
If you're hanging out with your girlfriends, you're gonna have like very deep conversations probably but we were just see guys hanging out there talking [00:20:00] stuff. They're talking about like gear and like TV and the sports my, my fiance said it takes three hours for someone to ask about someone's relationship when they're hanging out with their closest friends.
And so I think women expect that they're going to get these deep questions because they're asking deep questions, but I don't think guys naturally do that. And I'm always telling women it doesn't mean they're not interested. You don't have to wait to be asked. To share something.
Kirsten Trammell: Mm hmm.
Talia Koren: Yeah, I don't know.
What do you think?
Kirsten Trammell: I think that if we were to take, make a broad generalization of it, yeah, I definitely think that when women get together, we want to dive into all of the, the details and talk about our, our feelings and our thoughts about things and that isn't necessarily as accessible for a lot of men and a lot of men, don't even have that circle.
I was reading some studies about how, a high percentage of young men don't have a best friend or could even name, like saying that they have close friends. So there's even this. Missing link of connection [00:21:00] that, that they're having. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about working with men and, and why I love having guests like you on the show, because you have all this insight from women to bring to them.
And so that's a good, a good insight as well to consider maybe even I would imagine. Thinking of a list of questions before, like sitting down one day and just getting curious about what could be some deeper questions I could ask a girl that I actually am
Talia Koren: than that, like on that, think about what you are looking for and find questions based on that. If you are looking for someone family oriented, you can ask them like, what's, what are your favorite things to do with your family? How, how have you spent time with your family this year?
Like that's where the question should come from. Not just like a random, like if you Google like questions, SAS is like the dumbest questions. I never heard.
Kirsten Trammell: don't do that. I love it. Yeah, that's, that's really tailored more to each person because we all care about different things and we all want to know different things about somebody. So yeah, I
Talia Koren: And then the other, another tip for dating that I [00:22:00] really like is bring up and ask questions around topics that you are excited to talk about that light you up because that's attractive, right? Seeing someone light up on a date is always fun. And then seeing if they also light up or not, if they're interested.
So whatever it is don't be shy by your interests. You know, like every guy I've ever dated plays Dungeons and Dragons. I don't play, but it's fun to hear them talk about it.
Kirsten Trammell: Mm
Talia Koren: Yeah.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like we love seeing a man that's passionate. I don't know anyone who thinks I want a not passionate person. So yeah.
Talia Koren: nerd out, nerd out about something. It's, it's, it's hot and you'll get into non surface level conversations if you're bringing that on a date.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That kind of reminds me of, of this idea of making dating fun again. Understanding that, you know, in the beginning of this episode, starting off by the, recognizing the heaviness, the darkness, the [00:23:00] exhaustion, the burnout, the endless swiping, the dates not unfolding. I think it's something like it takes a man on average, 200 swipes to get one coffee date.
It's just kind of insane. what is unfolding, but I think that there's a lot of hope. So how can we make this process fun again?
Talia Koren: yes, first of all when it comes to dating apps I think they need to be seen as a supplement you don't just be on dating apps like also be open to connections in real life, right? So whoever were whoever's listening go deep on your interests and hobbies. Go make connections you never know who knows who knows who could set you up or bring you to a barbecue and then there's a girl there like you never know, you know,
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah.
Talia Koren: really, not just leaning on apps I think is important and it'll make you feel better to if you only focus on apps where statistically, It's not going to go very well.
You're going to feel like crap, but if you are also out in the world, you will feel like a little more balanced there. So that's one thing. And also if you're pursuing your interest for you, you're going to have a [00:24:00] great time anyway, whatever, pick a ball or like surfing or whatever you're into, it's you're just doing it because you like it and maybe you'll meet someone.
You know, I met so many people at the bouldering gym, like that was the easiest place to talk to people. All the guys were really attractive, you know, they're like climbing and you know, it's, it's easy to talk to people. So and also like you could just make friends. So that's just tip number one same thing with dates.
It's okay, for a first date, more of a vibe check, you want to keep it short. Right? I think if you are trying to set up a lot of dates, it can get exhausting if you, and also expensive for guys, if you are doing dinner and everything just coffee and a walk is perfect. Or happy hour drinks. Love it.
We love a happy hour. And then after the vibe check, then you can do something fun. It doesn't have to be dinner. I'm a big believer in dynamic dates, meaning like dates where you're moving, you're not just statically sitting across from each other.
You know, anything that you really want to do that isn't sitting and talking across from each other.
Kirsten Trammell: I love that. It makes so much more opportunity to engage with the world. It's just, it, [00:25:00] it's more enjoyable. And I, I love getting out and doing things that you love because like you said, even if you don't meet someone there, at least you just spent the three hours doing something that you love. And
Talia Koren: behind a screen, you know?
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah no, gotta get back out into the world. And I think people are really craving that in real life, that in person connection. And I think that it puts you instantly light years ahead of anybody that some girl has just swiped on because they've met you. They have experienced you.
They know what your energy is like. They've engaged with you. So it, there's so much more information that you have about each other from real life.
Talia Koren: Yeah, I mean, the real life challenge is that you don't know if they're straight or gay, or you don't know how old they are, you don't know if they're married there's a lot of other things happening. It I actually, I accidentally went on a date with someone who had a girlfriend. He didn't think it was a date.
I, I thought it was a date, yeah. Yeah.
Kirsten Trammell: You're like, oops.
Talia Koren: [00:26:00] Yeah, I was like, oh, you're an author? I'm an author. Let's get coffee. And I totally thought I was flirting. But I guess he didn't really pick that up. And in the middle of the day, I was like, you have a girlfriend, don't you? I just kind of knew.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, I'm okay. I was totally going to ask about this because it is true. When we're in real life, there's a level of ambiguity that you now have to navigate. Is this person, first of all, interested in me? Are they? And the same sexual orientation that I am. Are they in a relationship? Are they single?
Are they in an open relationship? Are they, there's, are they looking to date? Are you like, so much is unfolding. So how do we navigate that?
Talia Koren: I think my go to is always bringing up dating apps. Right? If I meet someone, I always found a way to fit it in. It's oh, are you on the apps here? Yeah. Just because I thought it's fun. I also think it's fun to talk about dating apps with people who are like locals. It's what do you think?
What's the flavor here? You know? Um, So that, that was my way of bringing it up. I think for also, you could just instead of asking diva boyfriend, you could ask [00:27:00] them out or ask for their number. And then that gives them the opportunity to be like, I'm actually in a relationship. You know, if they're in a relationship, like ideally, they're speaking up especially to the guy I asked out at the farmer's market, not knowing he had a girlfriend.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And I think too, it's, there's this rejection piece of that, right? No one wants to be rejected. No one wants to be told no.
Talia Koren: okay, hold up. But if someone says no to you because they are taken, that's not really a real rejection.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And that
Talia Koren: not about you.
Kirsten Trammell: exactly. And so it's, I think building that rejection bustle and also recognizing, yeah, if someone's in a relationship. I would hope that they're going to reject you, right?
Talia Koren: This. Let's just reframe. If you ask out someone and they say, no, you just made their day anyway. They're gonna be so flattered and happy that someone is interested in them, even though they're not interested or they're taken. That's still, as long as you're doing it in a respectful way, [00:28:00] obviously, you know,
Kirsten Trammell: and yeah. And whether someone wants to take that or not is is there for them?
Talia Koren: Yeah. And you, and also you get points for putting yourself out there. Go you, it's going to be easier next time, even if they say no. Yeah.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, I love it. Okay. I would love to do some scenarios
Talia Koren: Oh, okay. I'm ready.
Kirsten Trammell: So I was thinking about some different scenarios that men might find themselves in, in the dating space. And I would love to hear what your, what your guidance would be on this. So the first one I was thinking of is that a guy's going out with a girl.
He's really into her. And she seems interested in him, like she's going out with him a couple of, she's been going out with him, she's saying yes, but he's planning everything, he's paying for everything, he's putting all of the energy in to initiate everything, and this has been going on for a while now.
What would you say?
First, I would get aligned on intentions. What is her intention with dating? What [00:29:00] is your intention? See if you're even on the same page there. Are you in the same universe of what you're looking for right now? Because if she's just casual and of course. It's okay, yeah, you're good.
Talia Koren: You're fine. I'll hang out with you. I'm not whatever or maybe she is really like seriously dating you. number one to if to call her out you know, and you could do this in a, in a way that's like more of a invitation of Hey I would really love it. If you plan the next one. I'm curious to see what your ideas are.
Right? It's not like you don't plan anything. It's, you know, I am curious to see what you would plan for us, you know, what, what do you have up your sleeve, you know? And hopefully their reaction, her reaction would be like, Oh yeah, of course. And then maybe you could talk about it, be like, I've actually noticed this imbalance, you know, and did you notice it?
What do you think? What like, you have to talk about each other's expectations. Like maybe this girl expects the guy to plan everything and that might [00:30:00] not sit well with this guy. He might not, he might want more of an equal partner. And they're just not a match.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's I love the the considerations of that of the compatibility And also how to bring it up in a way that isn't, doesn't have to be super confrontational. But it's also a little bit of a challenge.
Talia Koren: yeah, it's a challenge, or it's yeah, it could be kind of a joking, funny I don't know, yeah, it doesn't have to be the serious heavy thing at first.
Kirsten Trammell: Perfect. Okay. Love it. All right. So now let's say that this guy has been seeing, you know, he's been. Out on dates, he's seeing a handful of women, and he's really starting to recognize that he really likes two women. But, he's at a point where he needs to make a decision.
Talia Koren: Been there.
Kirsten Trammell: How And it's tough, because he loves the qualities about one of them, loves these other qualities about the other. Could really see Potential in both of them, or just really wants to continue to pursue both of them, but knows he needs to make a choice. [00:31:00] Mm.
Talia Koren: Okay, I think the first thing is, who does he feel more comfortable with? Who does he feel more himself around? Who does he feel more like he could just be at ease with? That's really the, if for a long term partnership, that's the number one, right? In that scenario, if they already check all the other boxes, it's okay, who do you feel more comfortable with?
Kirsten Trammell: Mm hmm.
Talia Koren: and then I'd also be, if it's like for a while, it's like, who have you had conflict with and how did that go? That's usually another really good clue of how a relationship will go. What, you know, can, do you feel comfortable enough to talk about things that are hard to talk about or not? And that is a clue.
So those are the two things I would really consider at that point
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. I love
Talia Koren: when you're like splitting hairs.
Kirsten Trammell: Huh. Yeah. Yeah.
Talia Koren: been there. Like I was at that point with my fiance, I had two guys, I had him, he, his nickname was green bubble and I had blue bubble because the other guy was an iPhone person. He's an Android.
So I had been on like five dates with them each or [00:32:00] something. And then. I just felt, I was like, I have to make a decision. And I just felt like I, I had, I double booked day a Saturday with both of them. And then I was, and I was like, you know what, I actually really more excited to see green bubble. So I canceled on blue bubble.
And I said you know, I'm not interested anymore.
Kirsten Trammell: Wow.
Talia Koren: Because I knew I was dreading, I wasn't dreading that date, but I just wasn't looking forward to it as much, even though it was a really fun date, we were gonna go blueberry picking so cute you know, and yeah that's how I made that decision,
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Oh, I like that of, of like how to, how to look at both of them from those different lenses. I'm even thinking of, it's the question of who would you be more sad to lose to?
Talia Koren: I guess, yeah, that could work, but then it's like, what if it's a sex thing?
Yeah. That's where it's don't don't go for the person you have, that you definitely have the best sex with because that person might not necessarily be the best partner for you long [00:33:00] term. And I know it's hard to hear, but it's true.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And, and people can get better at sex.
Talia Koren: Yes. It's one, I think it's one of the easier things to improve in a relationship. If you have a baseline of compatibility yeah, I can,
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah, yeah, I think, can you communicate with each other? I think it's a little bit harder to, I mean, depends, but yeah, yeah, okay. Next scenario. Let's say that he has been dating someone that's really awesome. Everything is going great. They're super into one another. And he finally meets her friends. and they're horrible.
They're like, it's his worst nightmare. He has a really hard time connecting with them, being around them, doesn't really want to be around them. What, what does one do?
Talia Koren: This one's tough. I mean, it, I think it depends. I would have a talk with. girl, like how, [00:34:00] how, what are her expectations around him being with, hanging out with friends? Is this girl like, Oh, every time I go out, my friend's you're going to come. Or is it like, no, I like to be with my girls. And maybe like once a quarter, we might get together for something like, what is the actual, what are you actually getting into?
And what are the expectations? That's number one. Then from there, you can decide. I also would, I think honesty is the best policy. I'd be honest with the girl being like, Hey I actually don't click with your friends. What do you think? And just kind of talk through that, you know, what, why what does she think about that?
You know, just could she finesse it with that? There's, there might be some way to figure it out.
Kirsten Trammell: I know I made these scenarios up, but as you were talking, I was thinking too about how I know how we can be as girls. Like when we all get together, it's mayhem. And so perhaps what would it be like to spend time with just a couple of them? Or maybe are you in an environment where it's guys and [00:35:00] girls or, you know, like what, what are the different possibilities?
Talia Koren: like the expectations, like when I moved to the Bay area with my fiance, He was like, yeah, we're going to have dinner with my friends every Wednesday. And at first I was like, what? Every Wednesday. And because these are these people, you know, his friends are all PhDs like him and they're all really, they're all engineers.
I'm, I barely graduated college. Like I, I don't really necessarily fit it academically. So I was really worried about that, but I love it now. I love it. Like we, after a couple months, I was like, this is so nice. I love this so much. So sometimes you can come around like my, with my ex also, like his friends that I did not click at all.
I don't think they liked me at all. But then by the end of our relationship, which was six years, like we were really tight, so it can also don't, I think the first impression needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Okay. And final scenario, a guy goes on a first date and he met a girl on an app and they [00:36:00] meet in person and immediately he can tell it's not that he's been catfished necessarily, but clearly her photos were really edited, really filtered, old, whatever, from years past.
And he. isn't interested in her, but wants to be polite and doesn't want her to, you know, have that. I know a handful of guys that have had this experience and they're like, I literally don't know what to do, but I don't want to be an asshole and call her out or leave or, you know, whatever it is.
Talia Koren: You just have the drink, just have, just, a drink can take 30 minutes, right? One drink and then you peace out. Look, okay, if you know you're not into this person, look, I, I agree I think most, the reason why most second dates don't happen is because people's photos don't reflect an accurate representation of what, who they are today.
And that's for everyone. So I think that's if you're on the apps, please have accurate photos because even if you've [00:37:00] gained weight, like we don't know that you know, we're meeting you for the first time. We don't know. So just put the accurate pictures on because then you're more likely to like, it's okay, cool.
I could trust this person because they look like their pictures next. Let's just get into the conversation. So yeah, I would say have the drink, close out your tab and go home.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. And, and move on.
Talia Koren: yeah, that's that's a that's a polite way. I mean, I don't really know a polite way to dip out. I mean, I think it's if you make up an excuse or have a quote unquote emergency call to bring you out of the date.
It's pretty obvious.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that that is ever under the radar. I think everyone can sniff that out pretty quickly. Amazing. Okay. Talia, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think would be really important for all of these amazing men to hear? Yeah.
Talia Koren: I mean, okay. So one piece of advice, I don't know where this comes from, but men [00:38:00] will be like, we should never be vulnerable or something like that. They're getting advice from somewhere that they shouldn't be vulnerable and that their vulnerability will be used against them. And I'm like, No, we want to see the vulnerable side.
We want to know that you're emotionally intelligent. Like you, if you want someone to trust you, you have to come in with trust as well. So it's show these parts of yourself, show, talk a little bit about what you're, what you're worried about or what's going on. That's not necessarily the most fun to talk about because we'll see you as it's we all have this shit to deal with.
It's okay to, to just open up a little bit on dates and give us a little more and not be so guarded. I think that's a, would be, and that's fine. I would say to anyone, you know, dating, because I think we're a lot of us date from a very guarded place, which makes it less fun. And it's no, when you're open and you trust it, no matter what people say or do, you're going to be okay.
You're going to go home. Life will go on. You know, it's going to be all right. Yeah. So that's my advice. Just don't be afraid to show us more of yourself on dates.
Kirsten Trammell: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think we [00:39:00] can all take from that to, to be a little bit more open and a little less guarded. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Tell you, where can everybody find you learn more about all of the beautiful advice that you share? I know your Instagram is really fun and you have your own podcast.
Talia Koren: Yeah. Please come hang out with me. You can slide into my DMs at any time at dating. intentionally. And my podcast is called Dating Intentionally. My audience is mostly women, but guys are welcome too. So come on
Kirsten Trammell: I feel like this is a great place for guys to find girls that maybe would be interested in dating them intentionally.
Talia Koren: Yes.
Kirsten Trammell: Perfect. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here.
Talia Koren: Thank you for having me.
[00:40:00]